The Plainfield Plan Commission met on Thursday, April 9, 2009. In attendance were Mr. Satterfield, Mr. McPhail, Mr. Brandgard, Mr. Dunkin, Mr. Kirchoff and Mr. Gibbs.
ROLL CALL/DETERMINATION OF QUORUM
Mr. Carlucci administered the Roll Call.
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
Mr. Satterfield made a motion to approve the minutes of the March 2, 2009 Plainfield Plan Commission meeting as submitted. Second by Mr. McPhail. Roll call vote called.
Mr. Satterfield – yes
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
Mr. Dunkin – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gibbs – yes
6-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent. Motion carried.
OATH OF TESTIMONY
Mr. Chapman administered the Oath of Testimony.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
Mr. Gibbs reviewed the Guidelines Governing the Conduct of Public Hearings. Mr. James would you like to introduce the first case this evening.
Mr. James said we have three petitions for public hearing tonight. The first petition is the Kroger Development Plan that Ms. Sprague will give a brief summary of the changes that have occurred since the last Plan Commission meeting.
Ms. Sprague said this property is at Kroger just off of SR267. (Inaudible). There are just a couple of things. The gas station has been rotated so that it goes north and south rather than east and west. This has allowed them to separate the stacking traffic that might occur there so that it won't be located in the east and west interior access drive. Additionally, they have added some parking on the west side that will be used for Ritter's and it is curbed off so that it can also separate the Ritter's traffic from the Kroger traffic. The entire front parking area has been re-striped so that there is angled parking (inaudible). Also, they have added landscaping in front of the Kroger and out towards U.S. 40. (Inaudible) landscaping in there so that when you are coming down SR267, it will look (inaudible). They have added some signage, box signs (inaudible) and also there is a speed table (inaudible) SR267 (inaudible). Then just a couple of other things; the parking on the side yard at Ritter's does require a development incentive and they have doubled their landscaping. (Inaudible).
Here is the site plan. You can see the angled parking has been changed around in here and the other site plan does not show (inaudible). They added some parking over here to make up for those parking spots (inaudible). This is the site here. They have changed it this way instead of going this way. In doing so they basically added back the parking that DRC had been concerned about. In doing so they took the stacking (inaudible) and also separated traffic for Ritter's.
Here is the speed table. During the TAC meeting it was recommended that they might want to put it in the entrance (inaudible). Then (inaudible) tried to narrow down a visual (inaudible). This is just a view of the building to just give you an idea (inaudible) their signage and their building materials.
The DRC recommended approval this time. I think their main concern was actually with the parking previously and then they had also corrected all of the concerns that they had. In this case DRC asked them to mulch the islands that had shrubs and they have added additional landscaping into the sloped island that is kind of (inaudible). And then (inaudible) and they were asked to replace (inaudible).
This is a view of what the site looks like now on top as compared to the bottom, which is (inaudible). Then also (inaudible). We have asked them to do the updated style like Wal-Mart has. They have provided us with the items for DRC as requested. We have added a condition that if you should decide to approve the Development Plan that covers the pedestrian connection, which would be facilitating that side of the trail on the east. The petitioner has made many changes to the site. The question now is whether you think that is enough (inaudible). I would be happy to answer any questions and I know the petitioner is here if you have any questions for him.
Mr. Quinn said I'm an attorney for the Kroger Company. I really don't have a lot of presentation to make only because I think Jill has covered the issues. We went before the DRC and I think the changes were well received. That site plan did not have (inaudible). We have added additional parking to get us at least two spaces over the minimum requirements so I don't think any variances are needed. With that I would open it up to any questions that you may have regarding the changes that we have made.
Mr. Brandgard asked, would you go back to the plot plan? I'm just going to ask a few questions. How do you intend to (inaudible).
Mr. Scott Hathaway with SSOE, Inc. and the fuel transport will access through the primary access. (Inaudible). We anticipate the fuel transport to come along this path to come up and around and drop the fuel tanks (inaudible) and then after dropping off the product they would exit out of the egress.
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible). I think with that in there how easy is it going to be for the tanker to come in there and make that turn? The reason I say that is because a vehicle is going to meet up like this and there would be a heck of an angle as it is coming in there.
Mr. McGillem said the speed table is only six inches (inaudible). That's the only thing that we have on Elm Street so I don't think (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said I just want to make sure that we thought that part out.
Mr. McGillem said the radius coming in there has been changed. (Inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said in affect we have made that traffic lane in there (inaudible).
Mr. McGillem said (inaudible). Currently you have the perpendicular parking (inaudible)………in both directions and the way the angled parking is (inaudible). At least the traffic flow going normally inbound and (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible). I'm asking from the standpoint that people have the tendency to come in at the angle and then drive straight through the angled (inaudible) knowing their vehicle is pointed the wrong direction (inaudible).
Mr. Quinn said your point is well taken because that has been my experience also.
Mr. Brandgard said this area concerns me due to the fact that parking is compressed anyway. Doing what you are doing here should help it but the lanes are still going to be somewhat narrow.
Mr. McGillem said (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said on the other hand (inaudible).
Mr. Quinn asked, do you think it would help if (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said personally I think it would but on the other hand I'm concerned (inaudible). I think it is a good idea but on the other hand I understand the issues.
Mr. James said the width in here is 18 feet and that is what is required per the code. Right now there is a stop sign here. The intent is to take this stop sign out to allow a free flow left turn, which there won't be any stacking in here once you have that. And there should be a stop sign about here and one here to stop traffic so that will make a free flow turn. Traffic will be stopped back here, which will open up the radius also.
Mr. Satterfield asked, are you projecting that you are going to have a significant increase in customers or is it just going to be that your current customer is going to be buying gasoline?
Mr. Hathaway said it is primarily the servicing of existing customer count is there. Of course, when you put any facilities in, you hope business will pick up somewhat.
Mr. Satterfield said that is why I said significant.
Mr. Hathaway said I don't think it will be that significant; it is not the experience.
Mr. Gibbs said what I remember when we discussed this two months ago I think there was considerable concern that was raised regarding the stacked up cars that happen there, six or eight cars trying to exit out onto SR267. Now I'm hearing that we are going to make that the primary entrance for semis to make that radius turn. I haven't heard any of those addressed and then being a truck driver at one time what is going to stop the truck driver missing that turn and go to the exit in front of Ritter's or farther down in front of Ace Hardware? I haven't heard any of that addressed. And then as I look at the radius where you said the truck was going to make from the north end of the service area; that looks like an awful tight radius to make that new turn and come back to the east side where he is going to drop his fuel. I'm not convinced of that at all.
Mr. Quinn said Mr. Hathaway is engineering the site plan to address that concern. My only observation as far as the cut to the west that is right in front of Ritter's is as I recall that cut pretty well lines up with the drive-thru window line, if you will, of Ritter's. And I think if they did go that, they would make an immediate right and be right at the fueling island and I don't think they would have any reason to wonder into the center that immediately joins the Kroger center west. In other words they would go to the storage tanks with the fuel and go to the right of that entrance. (Inaudible).
Mr. Hathaway said that is our intent to address the turning radius when we actually have the (inaudible). What we do is we draw in the path and it calculates out the overhang (inaudible). It does meet the minimum requirements too to navigate through that path. As you mentioned it may be perceived tight but it does work. It is functional in that path.
Mr. McGillem said (inaudible). I don't think there is going to be a problem from the standpoint (inaudible) stacking because (inaudible). Usually you don't find a truck coming in during peak hours to service these. It's early in the morning or (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said that brings up (inaudible) how often do you have to come in and (inaudible).
(Inaudible) said I'm a project manager with Kroger's (inaudible). Regarding to the drop schedule (inaudible). On average probably three or four times a week. (Inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
(Inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said as you heard the last time we are still very concerned (inaudible). If we do approve this, you can understand (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said I might comment that I do believe the tanker delivery is an issue. I frequent this store two or three times a week and the adjacent shopping plaza two or three times a week. I made a concentrated effort to sit there and watch traffic patterns at different times of the day. Obviously, the volumes increase and decrease but I'm fully convinced that adding any traffic into that site of the initial traffic, any volume at all, is the wrong thing to do. It is congested. People drive where they want to drive in and out. It is not a good site. I just am still convinced that it is an inappropriate site to add a fuel station. I think the normal traffic is more of an issue than four or five times a week that the tanker would be there. It's going to make it worse obviously if it is there. I agree that truck drivers are going to take the path of least resistance and they will go in and out of there; I don't care what you do they are going to go in and out the way that they want to. I am just really concerned about the traffic patterns and flows in that whole area. I just believe the site is not designed to accommodate additional facilities on the site.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, do we have any traffic studies of the east/west traffic coming off Plainfield Plaza trying to get out SR267? I did hear there was going to be a stop sign somewhere there.
Mr. James said yes. There will be a stop sign there.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, did you consider recommending a speed table east/west (inaudible)? If you are not careful, that east/west traffic is real (inaudible).
Mr. McGillem asked, do you mean the east/west traffic coming to this intersection going to the plaza? We originally had the speed table (inaudible). Where they have it right now (inaudible)……broken down the entrance with some higher growing plants. (Inaudible) indicated a restrictive area that is going to (inaudible). As Kent indicated, (inaudible) trying to do something with it. We had discussed also from the standpoint if we shifted the station at the lower part where the bank was and in talking with Tim and kicking that around I'm not so sure we don't kick up a bigger problem traffic wise being down at the east end because I feel a lot of your service station attendants are going to go in the store utilizing the coupons and discounts and coming back up (inaudible) station. And then when they come out and exit for them to come out and exit, then the station is in the east end and everyone coming out is turning left to go back out. They are all exiting out to the intersection (inaudible) and then you have left turning traffic. I think you create a bigger problem with the intersection right there at the east/west movement because they all have to cross in front of incoming traffic in order to get back out at the signal. I think traffic flow wise relocating the station at the east end creates a bigger problem.
Mr. Satterfield asked, so is there going to be a significant increase in traffic flow back to my original question? That seems to be the question; what is the history and what are the projections that you want?
Mr. McPhail said I have a friend that works at the Kroger fueling station in Danville and I was visiting him a couple of weeks ago. I was there maybe 15 minutes and I don't believe I saw a gas customer come out of the store. I saw lots of people driving in and out in that particular time period I was there, which was five in the evening; something like that; between five and six. I don't remember seeing anybody come out of the store and drive in there. Most people were driving in and fueling and leaving.
(Inaudible). Experiences with other stores that have implemented fueling centers are about (inaudible).
Mr. Satterfield said that helps part of what he says too; how many of them are just gasoline customers that don't go in the store.
Mr. Hathaway said and that is something that varies from day to day.
(Inaudible).
Mr. Kirchoff said I can't believe they haven't done some analysis as to what (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said I find it difficult to believe that you are going to put in a gas station just to serve the customers that you currently have. I can't believe (inaudible). You are talking about a four to five percent increase. Knowing what I know about the grocery business, which is not a whole lot but I do know margins are thin out there. I don't understand the economics of what you are doing here if all you are doing is servicing the current customer base. It makes me think there has to be increased traffic to make this pay.
Mr. Hathaway said I know that one of the major purposes of the one stop shopping concept for this market retains a level of customers because as you know, the grocery business is very competitive. (Inaudible). From what I understand the grocery business is extremely competitive. The Indianapolis area, Central Indiana area, has the good fortune of having a lot of good competition in this business. I think from what I have personally seen it has kept prices down at least comparing with a lot of other parts of the country. With that said all I can tell you is Kroger feels that this is an integral part of their merchandising plan and it does help them with customer retainage as well as obviously it helps to increase the customer base.
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible) super store concepts they all have filling stations. Wal-Mart out there (inaudible).
Mr. Kirchoff said (inaudible). I can't believe they don't have a concept of what this is going to do.
Mr. Hathaway said all I can tell you is that I'm sure that they have done that but I'm not prepared to answer that question tonight and I apologize for that. But I can't answer that question for you; I don't have that information for you.
Mr. Kirchoff said (inaudible).
Mr. Satterfield said to answer part of Robin's question I assume they are going to be making some profit off their gasoline sales even if they just maintain their present grocery market. I don't know if that is a lot of profit or not. Somebody is getting a lot of profit.
Mr. Kirchoff said to me the traffic problem today is just (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said I spend most of my time being sensitive to businesses in Plainfield and I certainly am sensitive to Kroger's and their maintaining their market share and whatnot but I can't in good conscious approve a project for a business purpose that I think is going to create safety issues that we can't control. I firmly believe that it will increase traffic and I don't think the site is appropriate to handle that increased traffic and activity. You are moving some of the prime parking and they have done a better job. I commend them for the work that they have done since they were here before. I think they have done the very best job they can with the site. Believe me if it was on the other side of the site, I would have the same concerns. I just don't believe the site itself is suitable to have that kind of volume in what I perceive to be business volume going in there.
Mr. Gibbs said at this point I will open it up for public comment for those in favor or opposing this petition. Being no one coming forward I will close the public portion and open it up for additional discussion from the board or a possible motion.
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail made a motion that the Plan Commission deny DP-09-001 as filed by SSOE, Inc. requesting approval of a Development Plan for a four pump gas station and a new parking area on the Kroger property at 1930 E. Main Street finding that the development is not appropriate for the site and the surroundings. Second by Mr. Brandgard. Roll call vote called.
Mr. Satterfield – no
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
Mr. Dunkin – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gibbs – yes
5-ayes, 1-opposed, 0-absent. Motion carried.
Mr. James said DP-09-002, Siemens Real Estate & ARCO DB is a waiver to not require screening on rooftop mechanical units. The property is located on 2150 Stanley Road. Here is the building and here is Stanley Road. (Inaudible). The building setback is about 630 feet (inaudible). This is almost a 5,000 square foot building. It was built as a spec building by a (inaudible). Siemens is occupying about two-thirds of the building. (Inaudible). All rooftop mechanical equipment shall be screened based (inaudible) located at (inaudible).
At DRC this request was tabled until such time they could come back with a planned screened units but they wanted these units to be on the roof of the building but DRC reviewed the request with the assumption the units should be screened from SR267. But the ordinance says that they should be screened from the street immediately in front of the building. So, in this case it would be Edwards Drive and Stanley Road. When the Development Plan was approved, it was approved (inaudible) SR267. (Inaudible) between SR267 and this building. It is zoned General Commercial, which allows a height of 75 feet so we could have some buildings built between this building and SR267 (inaudible). My question to you is the Staff's interpretation correct in that the units should be screened on Edwards Drive and Stanley and not SR267?
Here is the building. This is from SR267. Here is the Stanley intersection. This is the view of Stanley Road. They did have to put some (inaudible) on the ground so we had (inaudible). This is the one unit (inaudible) could be seen from Edwards Drive. They painted the two units to match the color of the building (inaudible). They say moving these to the ground would be a costly endeavor. (Inaudible). Should we consider SR267 even though the ordinance states that it should be screened from the street? (Inaudible). I would be happy to answer any questions.
Mr. Jimmy Stainbeck said I have no presentation but I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have.
Mr. Eric Kuehiem said I live at (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said I have a couple of comments. (Inaudible). When I went out to look at this, you see the units and you see the units on top of a lot of buildings out there because the grade of SR267 is such that it is almost as high as the building. I will be honest when this came up, (inaudible) because (inaudible). I think this is a very unique situation. (Inaudible).
(Inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said I looked at it three or four times since we got our packets. I just went down there today and took a series of photographs. With the exception of the real rise in the roadway or at the tunnel if you take a look at those photographs I took today, there is no more exposure on this building than any of the other buildings that you see from Quaker Boulevard. I'm talking about the Eli Lilly building, the Griot's garage when you go on south and even the building that is on Stafford Road that is east of their site, the first building on Stafford Road where it used to be Quaker Oats, when you are driving down the road because of the elevation particularly at that point, you see the units on all of the buildings. As I looked at it today to try to screen particularly that one unit, that is going to take a massive screen and I'm not sure it wouldn't be a safety issue to try to screen it and I'm not sure it would look any better than what we are looking at.
Mr. Brandgard said to me the only way you would screen it is you have to raise the (inaudible) on the building and if you get that up too high, you have a safety factor.
Mr. McPhail said and when you add (inaudible) you really change the engineering of the building to do that.
Mr. Kirchoff said my concern (inaudible). When they were talking about setting it on the corner of Quaker and Stanley it is closer than we typically want and I think to add additional height (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said we did spend a lot of time particularly on the docks in trying to screen those because of that elevation. They have done a pretty good job of that.
Mr. Carlucci said (inaudible) because the BZA approved raising the sign (inaudible). That is one issue. You said it was Terry Drive that runs north and south? That is a private drive; it's not a public street. So, I don't know if the ordinance has any difference between a public street like Quaker Boulevard and a private street.
Mr. James said (inaudible).
Mr. Carlucci said I did notice one thing over there (inaudible). Did you notice that?
(Inaudible) yes I did.
Mr. Carlucci said it's leaning.
(Inaudible).
Mr. Gibbs said I will open it up for any public comment for those in favor or opposing this petition. Being no one coming forward I will close the public portion of this hearing and go back to the board for a recommendation.
Mr. Kirchoff made a motion that the Plan Commission approve DP-09-002 as filed by Siemens Real Estate requesting a waiver to not require screening of rooftop mechanical units at 2150 Stanley Road finding that:
1. The proposed development represents an innovative use of building material and landscaping which will enhance the use of value of area properties.
2. The proposed development is consistent with and compatible with other development located along the Gateway Corridor.
3. The proposed development is consistent with the intent and purpose of the Plainfield Zoning Ordinance.
Second by Mr. Brandgard. Roll call vote called.
Mr. Satterfield – yes
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
Mr. Dunkin – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gibbs – yes
6-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent. Motion carried.
Mr. Brandgard said just as a comment (inaudible).
(Inaudible).
Ms. Sprague said DP-09-003 is a request for approval to allow a freestanding LED sign to be located in front of the Plainfield Recreation and Aquatics Center. (Inaudible). The sign technically I don't believe would be set back 10 feet from right-of-way. This is master plan approval and the setback can be approved however it is requested. If you look at the elevation, it is pretty well out of the site line that (inaudible). The other thing that we would normally look at is changeable copy signs are usually part of another sign. In this case (inaudible). If this sign and the existing sign on the property were considered together, however, the 40% limit that usually applies to changeable copy would not be exceeded in this case. (Inaudible). As the sign is proposed to be a one-sided LED changeable copy sign facing south there is a question as to whether or not the sign would be using red or amber colored LEDs. The DRC recommended that they determine which color will work best in the afternoon sun though their preference was amber if feasible. (Inaudible). I would be happy to answer your questions.
Mr. McPhail asked, do you have a site plan?
Ms. Sprague said I didn't put in a site plan.
Mr. McPhail said I was trying to look at the landscaping on the houses across the street.
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said the face of the sign is not going to bleed that way; it is going to bleed into that intersection. The light off of that sign is going to be into that intersection.
Mr. Brandgard said I have a basic question. Do we really need this sign? Do we really need this sign when we look at the activity we have down there? I ask because I don't like signs.
Mr. Chafin said yes because (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said I don't understand why we need the sign.
Mr. Chafin said you would be surprised with the questions that we get that even though we have the information available with the program guide or the web site. It is there available but we constantly get those questions. It is a marketing tool for the three hundred seventy-five thousand people that come in there. I was trying to figure out ways to increase our revenue and the programs would be primarily what we would be promoting to address the programs that we offer. That is one way to do it and potentially capture that individual driving in, which may lead to more questions inside but they may not have known about a particular program. We may not have advertised for it or displayed it (inaudible). The funding has not been established yet but (inaudible) decided to go forward (inaudible).
Mr. Dunkin said so you are saying the information can be (inaudible).
Mr. Chafin said yes; right now we have a Pepsi banner up that says (inaudible) on Saturday. (Inaudible) just to let people know where ours is and when ours is. We get tons of phone calls for when is registration for this and that. That would be primarily what that would be for, i.e., swim lesson registrations, etc. Those types of announcements that we could make (inaudible).
Mr. Satterfield said I'm not opposed to signs and as a matter of fact I like signs but I have a question for the Staff. Have we had any private businesses request this and if they did, did we approve them?
Mr. James said yes; these are allowed in our Sign Ordinance and we did amend the ordinance so that we could change messages every 10 seconds but it has to be a static change. You can't have fireworks or anything like that. Stafford Crossing has one and Ziebart has one.
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. Chafin said we were catching everybody coming in.
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. Chafin said the majority of the people coming down the hill it is right there and as you stop to leave (inaudible). That was the rational behind that location.
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible). It may be me but I thought the red was hard to read.
Mr. Chafin said that was Nancy at DRC. We hadn't (inaudible). We think amber looks best.
Mr. Brandgard said especially in the daylight. (Inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said I think the Hendricks County Fairgrounds I believe is amber and it is pretty readable. The one at the library is hard for me to read and it is red.
Mr. Brandgard said even when I'm sitting there next to it, it is hard to read.
Mr. Gibbs said since it is going to be an informational sign with activities have you considered signage someplace else that is more accessible to the people in the community to read?
Mr. Chafin said we really haven't thought that because we are capturing so many visits out there that we thought (inaudible) when we counted attendance programs and members in Splash Island and those attending a rental event. So, our focus was there verses maybe the corner of Stafford or Longfellow and Center by Swinford Park when you come to a full stop. But (inaudible).
Mr. Carlucci said the Council gave consent to go forward with an interior sign that will be right above (inaudible). We are going to use this for one year. It has two half signs and we can put messages on one side and (inaudible) on the other. As we looked at it we thought if it works well, then we will put them on the buildings. (Inaudible) there are a few places that people gather in this Town (inaudible), the recreation center, the schools and then the library. So, it would make sense to try to work with the library to make sure that messages on different programs, etc. be put on the sign, maybe on the inside because you can't get all of that information on the outside. (Inaudible). Staff has done a lot talking about other ways (inaudible) short of twittering.
Mr. Chafin said the plasma screen that is being put in to do something similar to say what today's schedule is. If we have an event, this is the room that your event is in. It kind of puts the daily activities that are going on (inaudible) but that is a year contract.
Mr. Carlucci said on the other hand another location might be PYAC at some point.
Mr. Gibbs asked, is there anyone in the audience who would care to speak on this petition?
Mr. Jason Ellis said (inaudible).
Mr. Carlucci said every time you turn around and look back the woman who has to type these minutes is not going to be able to hear you. So, you keep turning and we record what you are saying but once you turn back she is not going to be able to hear what you are saying. So, if you could just stay forward and speak into the mic there, that would be great.
Mr. Ellis said in an effort not to offend the wonderful park and wonderful facility that we all enjoy, and I certainly enjoy it, (inaudible).
Mr. Carlucci said I want to clarify something; this sign will have no commercial messages on it at all. The only thing that will be on the sign will be the programs on the inside. It is not for any other business or anything else. That was a separate item inside the building. So, there is no revenue that we are going to get off this sign by selling space on it.
Mr. Ellis said that is something that I heard (inaudible).
Mr. Carlucci said that has nothing to do with the recreation center.
Mr. Ellis said I think in the end putting a commercial type sign (inaudible).
Mr. Gibbs said with no one else coming forward I will close the public portion of this meeting and open it up to the board for discussion or a possible motion.
Mr. Dunkin said I don't have a question but I just have a comment. In my opinion what it will be used for is for more information and it is a community service. Even though you have thousands of people coming you are trying to keep those people informed. So, I see that as the significance of having this sign.
Mr. James said I have a couple of comments to address some of the concerns. One the sign would not be on overnight. We already have two types of these signs at public facilities.
Mr. McPhail said my question earlier was was it located where it would be offensive and bleed in the back yards of the neighbors. Mr. Ellis didn't express that as being a concern. It was more the fact that he feels like the sign is inappropriate. It is not offensive to him as a neighbor bleeding into his yard and that type of thing. Certainly if it bled over into the yard I would have a concern. If you remember, we had lots of concern about this type of signage where the Meijer's store was going in with residential across the street there and we addressed that. We wanted to make sure that what we approved of that site was to be shut off at night and not bleed into their homes. If I could just convey the number of phone calls that my office gets daily and on a weekly basis, asking information about the recreation center, the information communication is positive. People are going out there to have one activity and they see information on the sign and they may at that point say I will sign up for that or I need to remember that or I didn't know that was going on today; I might turn around and leave if certain things were going on. So, I think the information for the public is valuable. We are really cautious about everything we have done being in a residential neighborhood. I have heard no evidence that it would be offensive to bleed over onto residences.
Mr. Brandgard said the Council has really been concerned about allowing advertising (inaudible) for the very reason we didn't want to commercialize the parks. This would be (inaudible). Kent said that people are always asking what is going on at the recreation center and even at the parks. As long as you have a sign that is not offensive (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said it doesn't need to be scrolling and changing every 10 seconds and all of that. That is distractive when you can't read them.
Mr. James said (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. Chafin said I think it is fairly close, it may not be exact. (Inaudible). There is landscaping there that we could move and reuse that would come around the sign and put some landscaping out there that we have and especially some in that area. (Inaudible). It will just have the new program that we are offering or the registrations that we are taking. Instead of getting six people to a class maybe we can get 10 or 20 and max the class out.
Mr. Kirchoff said (inaudible).
Mr. Chafin said you would probably get the passer-by or it is going to be more the person who is just coming into the gym that may have a child or spouse (inaudible). Right now when you walk in, there is the white board that says this is the fitness class; that is going to be on that or if you have a room rental, you stand and look at the screen and say I'm here for the Smith rental and it says 139B.
Mr. Kirchoff said (inaudible).
Mr. Chafin said I'm sure we probably could; that has a lot of tools and ability to put information on there. But I think when we started this, the inside screen, (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. Chafin said like I said the intent when we decided to do this, because we hadn't decided the funding mechanism yet, (inaudible).
Mr. Carlucci said this is really up to the Town Council if you want to do it and I appreciate that Clay wants to get this approved but there are other issues out there that they are dealing with. (Inaudible) a choice between going forward (inaudible) a sign or something else (inaudible) so they are just competing for dollars. You can probably do as much with a blast text message to people on a list to tell them there is a new program or something. The people that we are really trying to reach are not necessarily (inaudible) but probably younger people who have a different way of communicating in terms of technology. We have a work session coming up April 21st but again this is just to get approval but the Staff is constantly looking at other ways that we may be able to reach people to get them in there. And at the end of the day can we put this other thing in there first and that seems to work and the next busiest place is over at the library and convince them to do it and you may not need that anymore. (Inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said I don't think it is this board's decision whether it is fundable or not fundable. It is whether it is appropriate to have that sign there.
Mr. Chafin said (inaudible).
Mr. James said that is why we wanted a public hearing to notice the surrounding property owners to see (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail made a motion that the Plan Commission approve DP-09-003 as filed by Clay Chafin requesting approval of a master plan amendment for an LED sign at the entry of the Plainfield Recreation and Aquatics Center at 651 Vestal Road finding that:
1. The Development Plan complies with all applicable development standards of the district in which the site is located.
2. The Development Plan complies with all applicable provisions of the Subdivision Control Ordinance for which a waiver has not been granted.
3. The Development Plan complies with all applicable provisions for Architectural and Site Design Review for which a waiver has not been granted.
4. The proposed development is appropriate to the site and its surroundings.
5. The proposed development is consistent with the intent and purpose of the Plainfield Zoning Ordinance.
And that such approval be subject to the following conditions:
1. Substantial compliance with the site plan file dated March 17, 2009. Substantial compliance with the sign elevations file dated March 4, 2009.
2. The LED color on this sign shall be approved by Staff.
Second by Mr. Dunkin. Roll call vote called.
Mr. Satterfield – yes
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
Mr. Dunkin – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – no
Mr. Gibbs – yes
5-ayes, 1-opposed, 0-absent. Motion carried.
OLD BUSINESS/NEW BUSINESS
Mr. James said under old business Tim had mentioned an item today if we had time and wanted to talk about it tonight.
Mr. Belcher said a developer, Don Lambert (inaudible). He is holding bonds for a sidewalk, which is a requirement of our Subdivision Control Ordinance. He came to the Town Council requesting for some method possibly of releasing those bonds because of the cost and the fact that custom homes are going so slow. (Inaudible). The Town Council was generally in favor of at least looking at it but it comes under the Plan Commission preview so I'm here to ask if it is okay with this board if you would have us to go back and look at that. (Inaudible). We have to be careful in how we do it and I would like to go back and research some other communities and see how they do it because bonds are not a perfect method either. We have one situation right now where somebody didn't (inaudible) and went through bankruptcy and we are still chasing the (inaudible). So, maybe we can come up with a better way (inaudible). I would like to come back to you with some options.
Mr. Brandgard said I don't think there is anything wrong with taking a look and seeing if there is another way to achieve what we are trying to accomplish. (Inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said I know at least the proposal that he made to us was by putting in covenants. I remember I had to beg off because the covenant was in my subdivision and I was two months from starting a building and I had to beg off to meet that deadline because the time was up and I had to put a sidewalk in if I wasn't going to build. I was fortunate enough to starve them off for a couple of months but if it had been much longer than that, I would have had to put a sidewalk in. I really would not have fussed about it because it was part of the agreement when I bought the lot. After a certain period of time I had to put a sidewalk in if I didn't build.
Mr. Belcher said (inaudible). That's why I wanted to bring it to you tonight. (Inaudible).
Mr. Gibbs asked, is there consent? Consent given.
Mr. James said (inaudible). The sign ordinance was amended four years ago to allow plaques as a background, the wall signs. I wanted to see if you had any concerns about that. (Inaudible).
Mr. Carlucci said you said the ordinance allowed it?
Mr. James said yes. I wanted to get your opinion and wanted to know if you had any preference either way.
Mr. Carlucci said (inaudible).
Mr. James said to allow the background or no background. (Inaudible).
Mr. Gibbs said today the letters would have to be mounted directly to the building.
Mr. James said yes.
Ms. Sprague said the concern about that sign is they are putting in that (inaudible) that is eight inches (inaudible). My question is do you think that is what Red Robin's request was or do you think that is just the background (inaudible)?
Mr. Gibbs said I don't exactly remember what Red Robin's looks like.
Mr. James said my issue is do you like the backgrounds?
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible). Is it part of their company logo or their branding? I'm not sure the curvature is necessary. It seems to me (inaudible). I would think that it should be flat in order to be consistent. I think eight inches out (inaudible).
Ms. Sprague said (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said when you start getting it eight inches deep, what is the difference between that and box signs?
Mr. Brandgard said (inaudible).
Mr. McPhail said I don't have any problem with them being flat. When you start projecting it, then what is the definition between the box sign when it gets that deep, which we don't allow.
Mr. James said (inaudible). We had a maximum width (inaudible).
Mr. Gibbs said the letters on there too, which are probably another eight inches so you really have 16 inches out there.
Mr. James said that is all that I have this evening.
Mr. McPhail said I just have one quick thing. Probably at our next Plan Commission meeting we will be looking at a proposed apartment complex. The last one that came through we had quite the discussion and I think we have probably already heard from the school corporation but the chamber has completed a study of rental housing and I have a copy of that report for everybody. So, maybe it will help us be a little more prepared.
ADJOURNMENT
Mr. Kirchoff made a motion to adjourn. Second by Mr. Brandgard. Motion carried. Meeting adjourned.
