The Plainfield Town Council met on Monday, June 14, 2004. In
attendance were Mr. Kirchoff, Mr. Fivecoat, Mr. Gaddie, Mr. McPhail and Mr. Brandgard.
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
CONSENT AGENDA
Approval of the minutes of the Town Council meeting of Monday,
May 24, 2004.
Third Reading and Adoption of Ordinance No.08-2004: The
Duke/Bishop Rezoning; Ordinance No. 10-2004: Amendments to
Waterworks Rates and Charges; Ordinance No. 11-2004: Amendments
to the Plainfield Zoning and Subdivision Control Ordinances.
Approval of the May 2004 monthly reports for the Plainfield
Police Department; Town Court; Communications Department and the
Department of Public Works.
Approval to hire at the indicated start dates Jason Calloway
(June 21, 2004); Jeffrey Copeland (June 28, 2004); Jeffrey Dixon
(June 28, 2004) and Roman Holowka (June 28, 2004) as probationary
police officers with a starting salary of $31,798.00 per Chief
Larry Brinker’s recommendation.
Approval of the IT Director’s Report dated June 12, 2004; Town
Engineer’s Report dated June 12, 2004; Utility Billing Director’s
Report dated June 14, 2004; Plainfield Parks and Recreation
Director’s Report dated June 12, 2004 and the Human Resources
Director’s Report dated June 4, 2004.
Acceptance of water, sewer, streets and storm sewers for Paddock
Sections 1A and 1B per the Town Engineer’s Report dated June 12,
2004.
Consent to move forward with the establishment of a storm water
utility that will be placed under the existing sanitary sewer
utility per the Town Engineer’s Report dated June 12, 2004.
Approval to advertise for bids for the Clarks Creek South
interceptor sewers Phase 4 per the Town Engineer’s Report dated
June 12, 2004.
Change Order #2 in the amount of $6,886.39 for Natgun Corporation
for construction of a 750,000-gallon ground storage water tank
for painting of the tank and relocation of unsuitable materials
pile per the Town Engineer’s Report dated June 12, 2004.
Approval of the Indiana Department of Transportation form IC-639
accepting Plainfield Greenways, Phase 1 per the Town Engineer’s
Report dated June 12, 2004.
Consent to use gaming revenues distributed by the State of
Indiana for design work for the South Center Street pedestrian
trail per the Town Engineer’s Report dated June 12, 2004.
Approval of a design contract with Butler Fairman & Seufert in
the amount of $31,000.00 for a trail link on the south side of
Center Street between Friendship Gardens Park to Anderson Skate
Park and improvements to the Center Street pedestrian crossings
at Anderson Skate Park and Reeves Road per the Town Engineer’s
Report dated June 12, 2004.
Approval to allow Plainfield Police Officers to use their uniform
allowance to purchase dress uniforms per Chief Larry Brinker’s
undated report.
Approval to purchase a riding lawn tractor for use at Splash
Island Leisure Pool at a cost not to exceed $3,300.00 per the
Parks and Recreation Director’s Report dated June 14, 2004.
Approval to accept voluntary resignation of Captain Fred Benge
and return him to his previous rank of Lieutenant at an hourly
rate of $14.53 per hour effective June 4, 2004 per Chief Byron
Anderson’s Report dated June 10, 2004.
Mr. Kirchoff said for clarification, and I do not have a copy of
Ordinance No. 10-2004, which is the amendments to the waterworks rates and changes, but my recollection is that we had changed the deposit for rentals from $25.00 or whatever it was to $75.00. But then we had it at $76.00 and we had a question what that dollar transfer fee was. And then in Ms. Burgner’s report she is recommending $15.00 so my question is since this is the third and final reading what do we really want in that ordinance for that
transfer fee for rentals? Do we still want $75.00?
Ms. Burgner said yes the $75.00 is a renter’s fee meter deposit.
Mr. Kirchoff said I think it says $76.00. What does it say?
Ms. Burgner said “existing no connection on the rental property
includes a $1.00 transfer fee making the total $76.00.”
Mr. Kirchoff said I’m fine then. I assume that we will have discussion on the $15.00 at another time.
Mr. Brandgard said yes.
Mr. Kirchoff made a motion to approve the Consent Agenda as read.
Second by Mr. Fivecoat. Motion carried.
BID AWARDS
Mr. Belcher said the first one on your agenda is the Stanley Road
widening. On the Stanley Road widening there were several bids. The lowest responsive bid was placed by Calumet Asphalt Paving Company with the bid in the amount of $532,200.20. The bid committee recommends that we award it to Calumet Asphalt Paving Company.
Mr. Kirchoff made a motion to approve the award of the contract for the Stanley Road improvements to Calumet Asphalt Paving Company in the amount of $532,200.20. Second by Mr. McPhail. Motion carried.
Mr. Belcher said the second item on the agenda was the Clark Road,
north approach realignment. This is the north side of U.S. 40 near the Mazda dealer. The lowest responsive bid was from Harco Asphalt Paving, Inc. with the bid in the amount of $179,425.00 and the bid committee recommends the award to Harco Asphalt Paving, Inc.
Mr. Fivecoat made a motion to award the contract for the Clark Road
improvements to Harco Asphalt Paving, Inc. in the amount of $179,425.00. Second by Mr. McPhail. Motion carried.
Mr. Belcher said just so the Council is aware and the folks that may be traveling in this area we planned to award the notice to proceed shortly after the 4th of July on both of those projects. We want to get through the holiday weekends. I think the Mazda dealership would appreciate that. They usually have special sales and things so it will be shortly after that that you will see activity with the traffic control and that kind of thing starting on Stanley Road and Clark Road.
BUSINESS FROM THE FLOOR
Mr. Robert Mahan at 411 Buchanan said I have some questions for the
board members. I was wondering on Labor Day of 2003 and Memorial Day weekend of 2004 if any of you had sewage in your yards?
Mr. Brandgard said I don’t believe so.
Mr. Daniel said not that I know of.
Mr. Carlucci said no.
Mr. Gaddie said none.
Mr. Mahan asked, did they have it at the aquatic center by any chance
floating in the yards?
Mr. Brandgard said I don’t believe so.
Mr. Mahan asked, they got the same amount of rain that we did on
Buchanan right?
Mrs. Brunat at 415 Buchanan Street said we are having storm drains bust in our front yards flooding us out.
Mr. Mahan asked, have you seen the pictures?
Mr. Brandgard said yes. We are aware of it.
Mr. Mahan asked, is anything going to be done about it?
Mr. Brandgard said I think you know, as it happened on Labor Day
weekend, we thought we had it fixed. We went in there and put concrete around the joint where it ruptured.
Mr. Mahan said well as you can see the band-aid is in the picture but
it came off.
Mr. Brandgard said the joint that happened this time is a different one than the time before.
Mr. Mahan said Mr. Castetter we had a little chat about that.
Mr. Castetter said we disagree there.
Mr. Mahan said let’s take time out and get it straightened out then. I will bring my pictures and you can bring yours.
Mr. Castetter said I don’t think we need to do that. We disagree with
the joint. You saw the pictures that I have and I saw the pictures that you have.
Mr. Mahan said I will let you see the pictures. Right here is the one. We didn’t take pictures of the new one. Here is the levy that filled up that the Town let the people fill it in.
Mr. Brandgard said I disagree that the Town let the people fill it in. The people filled it in without the Town’s knowledge. When we found out, we stopped it. That doesn’t mean that we gave them permission to fill it in.
Mr. Mahan asked, didn’t you come up there on a Saturday and stop them
and they were doing that three months prior to that?
Mr. Carlucci said we did stop them from filling.
Mr. Mahan asked, you came up there on Saturday after the police
department called you right? But anyway the same joints burst again. There is the man’s shed flooded out. Mine is the same way. It ruined everything. Now I have talked to three contractors that do this for a living. They say the proper way to fix that is to put a band around it or line it. Two of the joints that came apart this time are the same two that came apart Labor Day weekend 2003.
Mr. Brandgard said I think that nobody is disputing the fact that we
had a problem there.
Mrs. Brunat said but the problem hasn’t been fixed either. I mean we
are putting patchwork on it and every time it rains my yard busts apart.
Mr. Castetter said let’s not say every time that it rains. If it is a
three-inch rain or more, then you have a problem there.
Mrs. Brunat said and we have sewage mixed in that. We have a threeyear-old boy that can’t play in the yard or nothing.
Mr. Brandgard said I think we realize there is a problem there and we
are working to try to correct it. The thing that we can’t control is how much water comes down when it rains. I think we all realize this last year we have had major 100 year rains one right after another, which we haven’t seen in a long time. We have a problem we know and we are working to fix it. Now the issue whether that one is broke again or not the pictures that I have seen of that break didn’t show me whether there was any concrete that had been around that pipe.
Mr. Mahan said the way that they fixed it was mixed up by hand and
padded around the open seams.
Mrs. Brunat said this is the second time. The first time they just threw dry mix in there and covered it up with dirt and said usually when it rains hard enough it will get through the dirt and turn it into cement and it was covered back up. Now that we have gotten on them so bad he has finally fixed one crack right and took pictures of it.
Mr. Brandgard said I can’t talk to what they did to the other one
because I didn’t see it.
Mr. Mahan said I can, I’ve seen it. I can tell you what they did to
it. They padded a little into the seam, poured six to eight bags in on top of it and threw dirt on top of it.
Mr. Castetter said after Labor Day that was the first time that I have seen those pictures.
Mr. Mahan said that is not the proper way for them to fix it.
Mr. Castetter said (inaudible).
Mr. Brandgard said I don’t think videotape will give you a solution to anything. It just shows you what you have or what you don’t have. Who asked that question? I need your name for the record.
Mr. Brian Olsen.
Mr. Brandgard asked, your address please?
Mr. Olsen said I’m very sympatric to raw sewage I’m sorry. I mean this is a situation that needs to be addressed immediately, not just that I’m working on it.
Mr. Brandgard asked, what do you suggest?
Mr. Olsen said let’s jump on it as fast as you jumped on the problem
with the iron at the aquatic center. That was a critical problem over there and the gentlemen seemed to attack it. This has nothing to do with me but it is raw sewage and children.
Mr. Brandgard said we understand that.
Mr. Olsen said we have to keep the old section of the Town as upgraded as we are doing with the new section. My address is 5869 Pennekamp.
Mr. Isaacs asked, would you state your name again please?
Mr. Brian Olsen.
Mr. Brandgard said not to get into an argument.
Mr. Mahan said I’m not here to argue. I’m here for a solution.
Mr. Brandgard said I know it.
Mr. Mahan said if you want a spokesman, we have a TV camera coming. If you want a spokesperson, I will let you know when he is coming. Do you want a representative present from the Town of Plainfield there when the TV people come out and tell them that you are working on it?
Mr. Brandgard said there are many ways and we are looking to find a
good way to fix that.
Mr. Mahan asked, but you don’t want to part with the money?
Mr. Brandgard asked, why don’t we want to part with the money?
Mr. Mahan said you tell me.
Mr. Brandgard said we want to fix it but we want to fix it correctly.
Mr. Mahan asked, is money the problem?
Mr. Brandgard said it is fixing it correctly that is the problem.
Mr. Mahan said and that is money.
Mr. Brandgard said of course it is money.
Mrs. Brunat said we have money for the new pool being built, bridges
from Mooresville being brought here. We have money for fixing the parks up.
Mr. Brandgard said the problem that you have is we have an overall plan to fix the combined sewers in this Town. That plan has been turned into the State for approval. The State has not approved the plan yet so that we can get started doing something with it. We don’t want to spend money that we are going to tear out and have to replace it with something else.
Gentleman from the audience said my question is how do we keep adding to it? If we are waiting for an approval on how to fix it in the first place, then how do we keep adding to it? You have new additions going on in, new facilities going in, new businesses going in. They are all pumping into the same sewer system. It seems to me that they are getting fast passage so why can’t we get the old ones fixed?
Mr. Brandgard said as new housing additions come in and businesses come in, they pay to put the new sewers in. You as ratepayers do not pay for that.
Gentleman asked, taxes don’t account for that?
Mr. Brandgard said no.
Gentleman asked, there are no user fees, sales tax or anything?
Mr. Brandgard said the new people coming in with the housing additions and the businesses pay to put the new sewers in.
Gentleman said but they are not paying the additional weight on the
same system that is already there. It is all going in the same hole.
Mr. Mahan asked, in what addition?
Mr. Carlucci said Glen Haven where Mr. Olsen lives in that subdivision. Just so you know property taxes do not pay to go towards the sewer or the water system whatsoever. We don’t fund anything with property taxes. The water department and the sewer department are funds that are used to fix the water lines and the sewer lines and the water plants and the sewer plants. On your utility bill is what you pay for the charges for the water and sewer and raise funds to fix problems like this. So, when you talk about the recreation center and the parks, those funds come from a completely different source and can’t be spent on water and sewer because that is not what supports that. Those issues like that distract from the fact that we have a problem. We have to get it fixed but you have a combined sewer that runs right in front of your house and when it surcharges like that, it puts a lot of pressure on that pipe. It has to be fixed and we have the funds to fix it. It is not a matter of funds. It is the matter of doing the right thing so that it doesn’t happen again.
Mr. Mahan asked, in this big picture where are we in getting it fixed?
Mr. Olsen said they are working on it.
Mr. Mahan said 20 years from now I will be down there in Maple Hill and I won’t get flooded down there.
Gentleman said I will take you at your word for what you say about each independent system addresses itself sewage wise. But you also have an engineer here that probably could verify that every time you put in a new subdivision or new aquatic center or a new parking lot it draws on the natural drainage and blocks it and increases the stresses on the other drainage. Am I right?
Mr. Belcher said there are things in place to prevent that.
Gentleman asked, then why is this happening?
Mr. Brandgard said the only time that it happens is when you have the
amounts of rain that occurred.
Mr. Mahan said I just asked everybody if they had sewage in their yards and they said no.
Mr. David Kern at 328 Raines Street said my neighbors and I have dealt with this for years. My neighbors have been promised for 10 plus years that the storm sewer that went to Duffy Road was going to continue on to Carr Road. Are you familiar with the neighborhood next to Cinergy? For over 10 years my neighbors have been promised that this is going to be continued on to Carr Road and nothing has been done. Granted the Labor Day rains were 100-year floods, I agree with that but five to six times a year my crawl space fills up with storm sewer and combination sewer, sanitary sewer, in my crawl space, which essentially is the Town’s detention pond. My neighbor’s house is the same way. Every one of my neighbors has an individual problem with the drainage whether it be basements backing up, crawl spaces backing
up, sump pumps that can’t get the water out fast enough because it is coming in their basement, raw sewage smell coming out of the casting and grates from intersections where the combination sewer goes through. I think I’m with these gentlemen and the gentleman who was up here a minute ago all we are getting is “we are working on it.” But we want more answers than that. I see in here item number 7, “Consent to move forward with establishment of storm water utility that will be placed under existing sanitary sewer utility per the Town Engineer’s Report dated June 12, 2004.” It is my understanding
through Mr. Belcher that is basically going to be a storm charge or storm drainage charge to the neighbors or the Town’s people to cover the cost of separating combination sewers. Am I correct with this?
Mr. McPhail said the storm water utility is not part of the CSO
problem. It is an entirely new regulation that is out there that we are required to control storm water.
Mr. Kern said but that still has a portion that is money spent toward
storm water.
Mr. McPhail said it is separate from the CSO problem.
Mr. Kern said it is separate from separating combination storm water
and sewage.
Mr. McPhail said not totally but it is a separate regulation that we
are dealing with.
Mr. Kern said but in a way it is related correct?
Mr. McPhail said let me tell you something and I’m beginning to get a
little bit iterated. I’ve been on this Council for a number of years. I’ve been responsible for the sewer system for a number of years. This is absolutely the first time that any citizen has come to this Council and made a formal presentation about the sewer system since I’ve been on the Council. Now I want to tell you something. I have spent a great deal of time trying to work on this CSO problem. Now if you want to pay a $100.00 sewer rate, everybody in Plainfield to pay $100.00 a month sewer rate, we can do that. Is that what you want?
Mr. Kern said that is really not the issue. That is fine. It does
revolve around money is what you are telling us.
Mr. McPhail said it is your money, not my money.
Mr. Kern asked, where does the Town get the money to pave the alleys
downtown? Where does the Town get the money to repave intersections in my neighborhood that didn’t have anything wrong with them last fall?
Mr. McPhail said that is entirely a different funding assistance for
roads and sewer and water and other things.
Mr. Kern asked, so where do you get the money if you have to do a
repair like you did on his storm sewer? Where do you get the money to do the repairs?
Mr. McPhail said it comes from the sewer ratepayers, from the rates
that you pay to use the sewer system.
Mr. Kern said my proposal is that for dealing with this combination
sewer problem then instead of presenting another fee to the Town’s people of Plainfield that you take some money out of one of these funds that you can take money from and set forth some kind of plan of action and time frame in which you are going to deal with these problems.
Mr. McPhail said we have submitted a plan to the State to change the
combined sewers. I have to say that we have combined sewers like most of the Towns in the State of Indiana.
Mr. Kern said I agree.
Mr. McPhail said we have submitted a plan to the State and if we had
been sitting here 100 years ago, that was an engineering marvel of the day. We are not going to correct a 100 years of bad engineering in one day.
Mr. Kern said I agree.
Mr. McPhail said if we had the money, we couldn’t do it all today. We
would have to tear up every street, every sidewalk. We couldn’t even move around Town.
Mr. Kern said I agree. This is a project that is going to take
anywhere from one to 20 years and my problem is if you guys drag your feet another five years, we are down to 25 years.
Mr. McPhail said we are not dragging our feet. We are working on the
problem everyday.
Mr. Brandgard asked, why do you say we are dragging our feet?
Mr. Kern said you are dragging your feet because we don’t get answers. We came here to get answers and the answers are we are working on it.
Mr. Brandgard asked, when is the last time that you came in here?
Mr. Kern said I haven’t been to the Town Council. I have dealt with
Mr. Carlucci. I have dealt with Carl Brown before he retired. I have dealt with Tim Belcher all of which are fine people. I have no problems with answers that I get from them but the fact that they are wishy-washy in that they can’t give me straight answers. You are the Town Council. You are the ones that make the decisions on where money gets spent and how fast things move along and I don’t feel like the Town Council is moving along fast enough particularly when you guys have had a plan to run storm sewers all the way to Carr Road for over 10 years and nothing was done 10 years ago. Then we get a 100 year flood and my neighbor and I are out pumping water out of our crawl
spaces all Labor Day and sewage to keep our houses from getting dry rot in the floor, ruining carpet. I agree this is a problem that is going to take time but my contention is that the Council needs to move forward with plans and actions rather than sitting here and saying we are working on it. Working on it is not an answer. It is running around it so that you don’t have to give a direct answer. Does that make sense?
Mr. Brandgard said it does.
Mr. Kern said but that is the answer that these people were getting and that is why I stepped forward. It is the same answer that I’m going to get when I come up here later and it is a related problem. They are on combination sewer, I assume Buchanan Street, just like we are and the majority of the old part of Town. And every part of this combination sewer is going to take one step at a time. You are going to get one section done in six months, maybe a year. Some sections may take longer than that. I understand all of that but my problem is what my neighbors, and I would like to see, and I’m sure other parts of the Town that have the same problems, that we do would like to see some kind of a plan set forth so that we can look at it and say okay it is going to be five years before we get relief but at least we can see that maybe in five years we are going to get relief. I don’t have a date. I haven’t even been given a date. The last thing that I got from Mr. Belcher was that you guys didn’t have enough money essentially to start anything and that you were going to propose a utility fee on storm water. If it is not the exact same thing, it is still related so that is what we are asking for, answers past “we are working on it.” Can anyone give me an answer or tell me at least that you are going to work on an answer in the next few weeks and actually address this problem? Or are we going to come back to the next meeting and get “well we are working on it?”
Mr. Brandgard said first of all you have diverted what these two
gentlemen were up here for, that is fixing their immediate problem. But as I said, you may have been talking to other people but this is the first time that you have been into this Council. So, to stand out there and say this Council has done nothing and walks around the problem is a little bit of a stretch because this is the first time that you have brought this into us. With that as we said, we have to separate the combined sewers in this Town. The EPA and the State have required us to submit a plan as they have every municipality in the State. We have submitted that plan. We would love to get started working on that plan but it needs to come back approved by the State
before we can start doing that and give you an answer of when we are going to do what when.
Mr. Kern asked, do you have any idea when the State is going to return this approved plan? Is this a six-month thing, two years? Do you have any idea?
Mr. Brandgard said we don’t have any idea.
Mr. Kern asked, is it IDEM?
Mr. Brandgard said you are correct.
Mr. Mahan asked, do we need to go to the governor’s office and have a
chat with him to see if he can get it pushed through any quicker?
Mr. Brandgard said if that would help. How long have we had that in?
Mr. Belcher said I’m not sure but it has been in over six months.
Mr. McPhail said that is not going to solve our problem. You have a
specific problem that apparently you are telling us that we didn’t repair it properly. I don’t know if that is right or not but I certainly know that our Department of Public Works Superintendent just told me that he has been out there and made some repairs and I believe that he has made them correctly.
Mr. Mahan said I would say this time he needs to put a better band aid on it than what they did the last time.
Mr. McPhail said that is not going to solve the combined sewer overflow problem. So, we are talking about two different problems. If we have a break in the main, we have to fix that. Do we agree with that? Are you satisfied that it has been repaired property this time?
Mrs. Brunat said no.
Mr. Mahan said no.
Mr. McPhail asked, then why?
Mrs. Brunat said because they did the same thing back in September.
Mr. Brandgard said you said back in September they just poured bags of concrete in there.
Mrs. Brunat said right.
Mr. Brandgard said and then from what I saw here it looks like it was
mixed and packed in there a little bit different.
Mrs. Brunat said well it is busting up all the way down the road in
front of our houses.
Mr. Brandgard said I think this is what Mr. Castetter has said we have run the TV camera down through there and it doesn’t show it is broken. What has happened is the water is coming down so hard that it hammers when it comes down that hill and it is going out through the slip-joints.
Mrs. Brunat said then it is broken.
Mr. Brandgard said no. Going through the slip-joint is a lot different than pipe being broken.
Mrs. Brunat said it is still not together working right.
Mr. Castetter said to say that we are not moving forward, we are. We
had 1,500 foot of that videotape trying to find out the best way to resolve that problem. There are two or three ways to fix that pipe. We are trying to come up with the best scenario to make this thing work where we are not spending the same money twice to fix it. We are working on it to get it resolved.
Mrs. Brunat asked, are we going to wait until it floods out again or
are we going to do it before it floods again?
Mr. Brandgard said first of all you have to understand we can’t control the rain. It could flood tonight so I can’t say that we can get it fixed before it floods again.
Mr. Mahan said that is the point nobody else gets flooded on their side of Town according to everybody else here.
Mr. Fivecoat said first of all I’m not on City sewer.
Mr. McPhail said my sump pump ran non-stop for three or four days on
Labor Day. Had I not had a sump pump I would have had a flooded crawl space and I’m not on a combined sewer.
Gentleman from audience asked, were these sewage releases reported to
the proper authorities? Whose responsibility is that?
Mr. McPhail said every overflow that we have is reported yes. How
specific it was I don’t know but every overflow that we have is reported.
Mr. Castetter said every CSO is reported in the State.
Mr. Mahan asked, what about our front yards?
Mr. Castetter said I don’t know.
Mr. Mahan asked, whose responsibility is it to report it?
Mr. Castetter said I don’t know.
Mr. Mahan said Mr. Brandgard it comes back to you then. Who is
supposed to report these sewage spills? I reported to IDEM and they said they didn’t have it. They said they didn’t have one for Labor Day. I reported the one for Memorial Day weekend.
Mr. Carlucci said the entire Town was overflowed it wasn’t just your
yard.
Mr. Mahan asked, was it reported?
Mr. Carlucci said it is reported because we have combined sewer
overflows.
Mr. Mahan said they are supposed to be reported point by point wherever it is. Is that correct?
Mr. Carlucci said I’m not sure that is correct.
Mr. Mahan said I’m just going by what the man told me.
Mr. Brandgard said where I’m going tonight is Mr. Belcher and Mr.
Castetter you have two approaches and you say you have another one that you want to work on. Come back at the next meeting with the approach that we are going to use or if you get it before then, we will get started on it.
Mrs. Brunat asked, what is that approach? I was hoping that it didn’t have anything to do with a cement mix. That cement mix isn’t working.
Mr. Castetter said that is a band aid and we hoped that would work but it didn’t but we are looking at ways we can solve the problem for good and we are going to have to spend the money to pay it.
Mr. Mahan said what I couldn’t understand is that sewer line runs right down the edge of that street where you just put the new sidewalk.
Mr. Castetter said no it is actually out in the street. That was long
going and happened before you had a problem with your problem.
Mr. Mahan said I believe the latest addition in the 60s is out in the
middle of the street. I believe you will find that runs through our front yard and right up to the edge of that street.
Mr. Castetter said the farther east you go it gets out into Buchanan.
Mr. Mahan said up at the top of the hill it goes over to Center Street when it gets up to the church I believe.
Mr. Castetter said farther east it almost crosses the street.
Mr. Mahan said it didn’t make sense to me to pour the sidewalk over a
sewer line.
Mr. Castetter said it’s not over the sewer line. The sewer line is out in the road.
Mr. Mahan asked, so our new sidewalk won’t be tore up?
Mr. Castetter said maybe a portion of it.
Mr. Carlucci said the problem seems to be more toward Mr. Mahan and not up at the hill.
Mr. Mahan said trust me the main on top of the hill doesn’t leak
because there is not enough head on it up there to make it leak. One other thing too this Town board has been notified of this sewage problem for two or three years now because I have been down here a couple of times rattling chains. Is that correct Mr. Carlucci?
Mr. Carlucci said I just don’t have a memory for exactly what days you have been in here.
Mr. Mahan said I have it written down and we can review it if you would like if you want to apologize to us.
Mr. McPhail said I might have missed a meeting.
Mr. Mahan said I can’t help that but I was here.
Mr. Brandgard said he was here after September.
Mr. McPhail said I missed that meeting. I know that we talked about
the retention area.
Mr. Mahan said that was something else that I couldn’t figure out. The Town gave them the okay to fill that up.
Mr. McPhail said no we didn’t.
Mr. Mahan said yes they did.
Mr. McPhail said no we didn’t.
Mr. Mahan said the man in the cloth told me that. Did he lie to me,
the preacher?
Mr. McPhail said I wouldn’t say that he lied to you but he might be
misinformed.
Mr. Mahan said let me tell you something that Mr. Carlucci had to come up on a Saturday with a police officer to tell him to get his truck out of there and not to dump anything else.
Mr. Carlucci asked, was that the guy with the drywall?
Mr. Mahan said no. It was Clyde Orr, Orr Paving.
Mr. McPhail said I remember talking about that issue but not the sewer.
Mr. Mahan said and they busted up the sidewalk too and I guess the Town replaced it. I think it is kind of stupid that the Town okayed that for them to fill it up and now we have to dig it back out.
Mr. Carlucci said you keep saying that but it is just not true.
Mr. Mahan said it is true. Mr. Brown sat right over there and admitted it.
Mr. Carlucci said nobody gave them permission to fill anything up there whatsoever.
Mr. Mahan said I beg your pardon.
Mr. Carlucci said you can beg all you want but it is not true.
Mr. Mahan said it is true. I don’t appreciate being called a liar.
Mr. Carlucci said I’m just saying it is not true.
Mr. Mahan said you are calling me a liar.
Mr. Carlucci said no because I don’t know where you got your
information. You just said the minister told you that. That does not make you a liar.
Mr. Mahan said and Carl Brown said the very same thing. Thank you and
have a good evening.
Mr. Isaacs asked, can I get your name again?
Mr. and Mrs. Brad Brunat at 415 Buchanan.
Mr. Isaacs asked, how do you spell your last name?
Mr. Bruant said Bruant.
Mr. Mahan said we will be waiting to hear from you.
Mr. Carlucci said it may have gone on a Consent Agenda but the storm
water utility we have to fund separate from of the sewers and sometimes the storm sewers are a critical part of that. You can separate sewers and you can spend storm utility money to do that. So, the idea is it will be an additional fee but that fee is being driven by two things, one we have to separate those sewers. The federal government has said that we have to do that and they are going to approve a plan to do it. But we have to have a mechanism to fund this. If we take that all out of the sewer fund, the sewer rates will be astronomical. The storm sewer issue is an issue all over Town
whether they are on sanitary sewers or not. So, there are a lot of places in Town that do not have sewers but storm water is still an issue. As we progress forward and we have a source of funds to spend on these projects and implement that plan, we can start separating these sewers. Primarily they are in the old part of Town because that is where the combined sewers are. They all end up at five or four CSOs.
Mr. Belcher said four CSOs.
Mr. Carlucci said we want to get rid of those CSOs but the only way
that you can do that is separate them so that the sanitary sewers goes to the plant and the storm water goes to the creek. So, that we are not polluting the creek. But we have 106 other communities in the State that are in the same boat, all trying to find a way to fund the federal mandate to separate those sewers and the storm water. But if we have to raise the sewer rates an astronomical amount, everybody will be feeling pain that they don’t want to feel. But by spreading this out over to multiple sewer customers both inside the Town and outside the Town then we will be able to separate those sewers and get these longstanding problems fixed.
Ms. Sherry Smith at 708 Harlan Street said I’m backing David Kern up in the neighborhood of Duffy Street and Raines. I would like to be in the record that we are here and we are complaining. We brought our point to your attention. I want us to be put on the list to be one of the top first ones to be looked at in having our problem repaired. That’s all I’m asking. The second thing that I’m going to ask is who do we call when we have a problem? We can’t come to the Town board when it is raining and we are having a problem. Who do we call? We talked to Mr. Carlucci and that was not good enough. We talked to somebody else that was not good enough. Who are we supposed to call when we have the problem? A simple question.
Mr. Brandgard said in this case from the board’s standpoint it would be Mr. Fivecoat.
Ms. Smith asked, do you have a card Mr. Fivecoat?
Mr. Fivecoat said yes.
Ms. Smith said I would like to have one please.
Mr. McPhail asked, can you tell me how often you have a problem? How
much rain does it take to have your problem?
Ms. Smith said we have problems up there every time it rains and it is more than just the sewer. It is because we have a throughway from our house and it is not properly taken care of. It gets water held up into it and it is not flowing out to the street properly. We have that problem and in addition we are not addressing that one today. We are addressing the one when it gets an over abundance. It gets all backed up and is causing a lot of health problems. That is what we are doing today. The other ones we will deal with down the road while we have the major one to look into.
Mr. McPhail asked, is it like a two-inch rain problem? You apparently
have had more problems Memorial Day and Labor Day.
Ms. Smith said we have and they come down once in awhile and clean it
out and say that it has leaves in it or something and then it turns around and backs up again. So, they clean it out but again we are on that dual and we are in the old neighborhood.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, can you give me a sense of where that is at? Where are you located?
Ms. Smith said we are between Duffy and Raines. You would think that
we wouldn’t have the problem being on top of the hill but we do.
Mr. Brandgard said several years ago we split one of the combined
sewers up there and it is part of it.
Ms. Smith that was my mom’s and that was a block down.
Mr. Brandgard said when we did that, we never heard from anybody so we assumed from the Council’s standpoint that we weren’t having any problems.
Ms. Smith said we were told in our neighborhood that they are doing all of this repair work for the alleys and streets and they did it down to the old part and they stopped right there at Duffy. Everything has stopped since then and then, of course, the waters come and you forget about that and you work over on this problem. Now we are here and we are letting you know what is going on.
Mr. Carlucci said the nature of these pipes is that you have a sanitary pipe, for example, that is this size. People with their sump pumps are pumping directly into the system. It can’t handle it. Storm water pipes are this big. Both of those into a small pipe cannot carry all of that water. There are a lot of people that have sump pumps that pump directly into those systems.
Gentleman asked, is that illegal?
Mr. Carlucci said it is illegal. I can guarantee you that after we did that separation project people still tied their storm water back into the sewers anyway. It really does create a problem to make sure that you get all of those off of there and keep them off or you go right back to the same problem.
Mr. Kern said I hesitated to come back up here but I did want to answer your question since we are talking about my neighborhood now and not dealing with somebody else. It basically amounts to a couple of inches of rain or more is when my intersection starts to back up. There are portions all over the neighborhood. There are castings that float on top of the pressure of the water in other parts of the neighborhood. But we are talking about a couple of inches of rain.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, where are you again?
Mr. Dave Kern at 320 Raines Street. So, I just wanted to answer your
question from what I have seen with the rain gauge and just watching it it is five to six times a year but it amounts to a couple of inches or more. I know a lot of people keep bringing up the Labor Day rains but that is really not the underlying issue because nobody could have done anything about that but it is the overall problem.
Mr. Brandgard said I don’t want to give you the impression that we
aren’t doing anything. The way the rules are we have to turn that plan in and we really can’t start working on the plan until it comes back approved. They kind have tied our hands.
Reverend Kathryn Hubbard said I’m speaking also on behalf of my
husband. We moved to Plainfield in the middle of August of last year. Two weeks later we incurred $3,000.00 worth of damage because we had not unpacked all of our boxes. We live at 802 Harlan Street and every time it rains, a good hard rain, we are wondering if we are going to incur that kind of damage again. So, we are concerned as well. Whenever we leave our home when it is raining hard, we cannot go away if we are expecting rain because we are afraid our garage and our crawl space will be flooded out again. This is also mental duress. We are living under conditions that are simply not just. We always constantly think about this and we are sorry that we purchased in the
area that we did. We love our neighborhood but I would urge you to fix this problem as soon as possible unless it starts affecting the children. If children and adults end up getting sick because of contaminated ground water, you are going to have a larger problem on your hands than just flooding. Thank you very much.
Ms. Geneva Underwood at 1027 Pamela Dr. said my area is going to run
into the same problem that these people are running into. I have asked Mr. Carlucci and I have warned Mr. Belcher of it. We have people on my street that are putting underneath crawl space water into the sewer. Is this real expensive to catch these people and fine them before I get into a situation and come yelling in here that it is happening now. Our sewers are eventually going to not work with these things all happening? I cannot get an answer from these people. Mr. Belcher was nice about it. He says let’s bring one thing up at a time but I hear what these people are discussing tonight and if
we can’t get the board to do something about the people that is illegally doing this…………I’m not in the old section of Town per se as old as this section that they are talking about. But it is going to be happening if you guys don’t do something about these people that cheat.
Mr. Brandgard said what is happening in the areas that you are talking about should not happen in your area.
Ms. Underwood said my question is when is someone going to do something about the four or five families that is doing this on my street?
Mr. Brandgard said again it is a case I think when we find out and know about it, then we will do something about it.
Ms. Underwood asked, what happened to the fact that you go on the
street and there is smoke that comes out of people’s home that is falsely doing this? What happened with doing this secretly?
Mr. Brandgard said we don’t do that secretly.
Ms. Underwood asked, how do you do it? Do you walk up and ask them so
they can turn off their pumps?
Mr. Brandgard said where we have done the smoke test like that we let
people know that we are doing it.
Ms. Underwood said that is okay but what do you do give them time to
turn their pumps off so that when you turn your backs, they can turn them on?
Mr. Carlucci said you just hit a key point. When your house was
inspected before you bought it when it was built, we have the inspectors look at all of the plumbing to make sure that they are not hooked up with sump pumps illegally. This goes not to the dishonesty of the Town but it goes to the dishonesty of the people who do these things. It is difficult to go to every house in Town unless you have some other kind of evidence other than you think the people are doing it to go into their house and inspect their property like that. I wouldn’t know why anybody over there would want to do that when they can just run it out to the storm sewer is beyond me because that is the easiest way to go. Storm sewers are in the street and they can
run their sump pumps out there.
Ms. Underwood asked, where is our sewer then?
Mr. Carlucci said your storm sewer is in the street. That is a
different conveyance than the sanitary sewer.
Ms. Underwood asked, are both of them in the street?
Mr. Carlucci said Mr. Belcher would know better whether the sanitary
sewer is out in your street.
Mr. Belcher said in Ms. Underwood’s neighborhood there would be no
advantage to someone in your neighborhood to hook a sump pump to the
sanitary. It doesn’t mean they might have done it by mistake and if that happens, we can find out about that.
Ms. Underwood said let me sit down. I know people that is doing it so
my question is what do we do? What does it cost to get this taken care of before we reach 20 years down the road?
Mr. Carlucci said we have to have some evidence before we go into
someone’s house and ask them to inspect. You have separated storm water and sanitary sewers. There is no advantage for them to pump into that sanitary sewer. None whatsoever.
Ms. Underwood said okay Mr. Carlucci you know what I’m here for
tonight. It is the lady that filled up the swale in the back yard. She has compounded her home to where she has water underneath. She is one of them that is doing it illegally. She brought her own problem on herself. I didn’t come up here for that. I just wondered why it is so expensive that we can’t stop these people from doing this? I run water at my house everyday. You can check what my water bill is. I heard these poor people begging for help. My sewer bill is just as much as probably the Williamsburg because I get charged more for my sewer that goes through that water. And I don’t want this happening to me if I’m still here 20 years from now. This should have never
been allowed to happen in this Town period. So, I’m telling you in advance that this particular lady that filled up the swale, which is west of me where my water won’t go off my yard she has surrounded her home and set it in a hole. If she had done it correctly, or undo it correctly, she wouldn’t even have to be doing this cheating. I can’t get no help nowhere. I have put this off. Mr. Carlucci how long have we been talking about this? I mentioned this to you that particularly three or four are cheating. What do we get? It doesn’t go anywhere. Mr. Belcher knew that I was upset about getting the water out of my yard so he didn’t want me to bring up another issue but I’m going to bring it up tonight. I’m going to put it on the record because we
have too many people using sump pumps. Naturally maybe they are not
concerned about keeping this swale open now that is supposed to go west to the creek. Mr. McPhail at our last meeting he didn’t even have to come out to my house nothing is wrong. He knew before he ever came out nothing was wrong so how do people work with you guys? Before he ever came to my home the next morning I didn’t have a problem out there so I’m anxious to see what he brought back to the board. I know he was talking very hard with convincing Mr. Fivecoat. Mr. Fivecoat is probably not familiar with Chuck Foggatt but I did hear this week that Paul Hardin won’t let his swales be filled up over there and it is only down in his covenants. Why did Chuck
Foggatt tell me I still remember those swales are supposed to be kept opened? Why is anyone allowing her to fill this up? Why does one person get more things done in this Town than someone else? We all pay the same thing don’t we? Don’t we all pretty much pay the same thing? If you live in luxury you pay for it. I live in an ordinary home but I paid for it. This crape with the sewer bill going up I’m pretty sure every town around us the sewer bill is going up so why create more problems. There is no need of threatening us. They are going to go up period if you guys keep building and are we supposed
to keep building in this Town? I’m concerned about the new parks. I use them. I’m concerned about the swimming pool. I can use it. I have a joint problem. I will be willing to go there and use it but I don’t think that this one little group should get mistreated while it is all going on. It only takes one Councilman to talk to the other Councilmen into not getting anything done and when he came to my residence, he didn’t see a problem. Have I got a dam on this side that holds water in my yard? Would you guys like to live that way? Now I have an area around the snowball bush that is dead, about six or eight inches. I told Mr. Belcher. So, since I got on the floor I will bring it all up. What have you guys decided to do about my
property? Does anyone have an answer except for Mr. McPhail.
Mr. McPhail said I can report to the Council that I did come to your
last place after the last Council meeting. We had an overnight rain. I don’t know how much it rained. I got there at mid morning and you were cutting the grass. There was no standing water. I personally don’t think you have a problem but I will tell you the same thing that I told you before I believe it is a civil issue between you and your neighbor. I don’t believe the Town has a right to get involved with the situation.
Ms. Underwood asked, where is it a civil issue?
Mr. McPhail said because it is not Town property. The Town has no
easement. We have no control.
Ms. Underwood said you have an easement. You have a 10-foot easement
behind our homes.
Mr. McPhail said I’m not going to argue with you.
Ms. Underwood said you don’t have to argue with me but you are saying
things that are not true. We have an easement back there.
Mr. McPhail said it is not our property. We have no right to go in
there and tell that property owner what they can do with that easement.
Ms. Underwood said but you have a right to tell me what to do with it
right?
Mr. McPhail said no we don’t.
Ms. Underwood asked, can I fill my swale up? Somebody give me an
answer. Can I fill my swale up? I can push it right on over on her but it is sure going to stop the people east of me. Can I fill my swale up?
Mr. McPhail said I’m not going to tell you that you can fill it up.
Ms. Underwood asked, why are you letting her continue to keep hers
full. You may be friends with them Mr. McPhail but if you are going to help this Town, help everybody.
Mr. McPhail said I don’t even know your neighbor.
Ms. Underwood asked, do you know the Harris family?
Mr. McPhail said I do.
Ms. Underwood said I thought you did.
Mr. McPhail said I certainly don’t know your neighbor and I made the
effort to come and look because I wanted to know first hand what you were telling me.
Ms. Underwood asked, why is the water standing in my yard and by the
way we have to get this on the record the rain that you are talking about was a fourth of an inch. I went and checked it after you told me.
Mr. McPhail said I just told you I didn’t know how much it rained.
Ms. Underwood said it wasn’t even a fourth.
Mr. McPhail said we had an overnight rain. I didn’t know how much it
rained.
Ms. Underwood said I mow in the rain. I mow in the water all of the
time. As I said, how tall was my grass?
Mr. McPhail said it was freshly cut.
Ms. Underwood said yes on four inches.
Mr. McPhail said I didn’t get down and measure it.
Ms. Underwood asked, what is the problem that this Town cannot ask her to open up her swale but yet you guys can tell me that I can’t fill mine up and you can control a 10-foot easement there?
Mr. Brandgard said I think what I heard said is we can’t tell you to
fill it up.
Ms. Underwood said I realize what you are saying but the County
engineer has already done told me Geneva don’t fill that up because sooner or later everyone is going to have to pay to open that up. Right now it is only her that is blocking it. I don’t want to do anything wrong. I really don’t. I understand but if someone cannot get something done, I’m not going to sit there and let my property decay and erode over into the pond that doesn’t belong to me and that is a waste. But there are children that play in that and I’m not getting involved in a lawsuit and all of that property is going
to sell one day and there are things that are being done. I don’t know how an inspector is going to get by with some of the things. I can’t sit here and let this Council degrade my property $10-30,000.00 down the road. Now I can’t do that. I don’t know where I’m going to go but I can’t do that. He wouldn’t want his property done that way. Mr. Fivecoat wouldn’t want his property done that way. None of you people would want your property done that way. She is the only one. How many lots are on that street? She is the only one that has ever attempted to do this and I checked with the Hardin area and it wouldn’t be allowed there. Why does he get by with saying that the Town cannot ask this swale to open up?
Mr. Daniel said you may recall Ms. Underwood when you were here the
last time, the Town Council asked me to review the plat that was recorded on that property when that subdivision was approved and Mr. Belcher forwarded a copy of it. When you look on plats like that, it will tell you what is dedicated to the public and what is not. The streets in that area are dedicated to the public. The language dealing with the surface water drainage states as follows, “There are strips of ground of widths called for in the plat, which are reserved for surface water drainage purposes and for storm sewer systems. No permanent or other structures are to be erected, maintained on said strips.”
Ms. Underwood said that is our swale.
Mr. Daniel said that is the only thing that is in your plat. So, the
Town has no authority to go on that swale and require anybody to do anything if there has been something filled in.
Ms. Underwood asked, who does?
Mr. Daniel said I’m going to assume something here but it may be tied
to your restrictive covenants. I don’t know but there might be language in your restrictive covenants dealing with that. There is no question if somebody put a structure or built something on that. My guess is restrictive covenants deal with that and you as a property owner can enforce those or if you have a homeowners association there, which some areas do have, the homeowners association has the authority to enforce those restrictive covenants.
Ms. Underwood asked, why did I have to get a permit to build my gazebo and do that addition if there are not restrictions?
Mr. Daniel said we are talking about here swales. Those were not
dedicated to the Town. That is the only thing that we are talking about.
Ms. Underwood asked, what is dedicated to the Town?
Mr. Daniel said the Town does not own the easements in that
subdivision.
Ms. Underwood asked, who does?
Mr. Daniel said probably the homeowners association.
Ms. Underwood said we don’t have a homeowners association. We just
have covenants. I used the Hardin addition as an example so that you guys might understand.
Mr. Daniel said my guess is there is authority in the restrictive
covenants for you or…………
[Tape one concluded at this point and time and tape two resumed as
follows with Ms. Underwood speaking.]
………… Can I have minutes of this please from the last one and this one?
Mr. Daniel said yes it is public record.
Ms. Underwood asked, so why do we have to go by any restrictions if she doesn’t? Why does anybody?
Mr. Daniel said the Town doesn’t have any authority to tell anybody out there what they can and cannot do in those drainage swales.
Ms. Underwood asked, if you had to work on the power lines out there,
who gives the authority for them to come in?
Mr. Daniel said there is other language in there dealing with the power lines. The power lines are dealt with through State regulations of the utilities.
Mr. Underwood asked, and Mr. Belcher it doesn’t use the word “swales”
are supposed to keep open?
Mr. Belcher said Mr. Daniel read what was on the plat.
Ms. Underwood asked, the swales don’t have to be opened?
Mr. Daniel said I just read what the plat said.
Ms. Underwood said read it again because I didn’t understand it.
Mr. Daniel said the plat says “there are strips of ground of widths
called for on the plat, which are reserved for surface water drainage
purposes and for storm sewer systems. No permanent or other structures are to be erected and maintained upon said strips.”
Ms. Underwood asked, is dirt not permanent?
Mr. Daniel said the question here Ms. Underwood is whether or not the
Town has the authority. There is no dedication language saying that those strips of ground are dedicated to the Town or the public that is the problem.
Ms. Underwood asked, why is it at the clerk’s office? Why is it on the court records then? Why would Chuck Foggatt lie to me? Where did you get your paperwork then?
Mr. Daniel said it is right on the plat that was recorded when this
subdivision was approved.
Ms. Underwood asked, why would Chuck Foggatt lie to me? He was the
engineer. Why would he lie to me? I just called him about three months ago. Mr. Carlucci why would he lie to me?
Mr. Carlucci said I don’t know that he lied to you.
Ms. Underwood said he told me that it is on the court records that
those are to be kept opened. The man engineered the place. He put the
fences up.
Mr. Kirchoff said we are not saying that they are not. We are just
saying that it is not our responsibility.
Ms. Underwood said it doesn’t sound like anything is this Town’s
responsibility unless you want it to be. If we are fighting with Avon, it is you guy’s business. If we are fighting with Brownsburg, it is you guy’s business. Mr. McPhail knows all about that. He can get his problem took care of because he is in between the Avon and Plainfield fight. And I’m sorry for my bitterness but I’ve been at this a long time and it is a pretty nice street isn’t it Mr. Belcher? I keep my home up great. When I fill my yard up and she comes in, what are you going to tell her?
Mr. McPhail said the same thing that we just told you.
Ms. Underwood asked, you are?
Mr. McPhail said certainly. We have no right legally to do anything.
Ms. Underwood said no right legally but you have the right to get it
done. You don’t want to spend the money.
Mr. McPhail said no I don’t. No I don’t.
Ms. Underwood said yes this Town has the right to tell that lady to get that dirt out of that swale. Am I wrong or right sir?
Mr. Brandgard said you are wrong. We do not have the legal right. We
do not have legal control over that swale.
Ms. Underwood asked, why did I have to pay this Town for permits? Why
do I pay taxes on that gazebo that has to set up against my house when it could have set out there in that swale area because dirt is the same thing as wood isn’t it?
Mr. Brandgard said I don’t think so.
Ms. Underwood asked, it is permanent isn’t it? Is it permanent or not? Is dirt not permanent as wood? Mr. Fivecoat give me an answer.
Mr. Fivecoat said is dirt the same as wood, no.
Ms. Underwood said you know what I’m saying though. So, in other words I get nowhere by coming in.
Mr. Fivecoat said Geneva what we are trying to explain to you is that
we have no legal right as a Council to do that. You as a property owner in that subdivision can take her to civil court because of the plat.
Ms. Underwood asked, why did the County engineer say that if you guys
didn’t take some sort of steps, that he could force you guys.
Mr. Fivecoat said I can’t answer that.
Ms. Underwood said I’m sure you guys have called him fifty thousand
times. And by the way I want to clarify that John Hall is a friend of my family. I don’t want anyone calling him anymore. He’s not my personal friend as someone is insinuating. He is a dear friend to a brother of mine so I assume that John Hall is friends of my whole entire family but I want to get that straight so no one will be aggravating John Hall anymore. That’s nice whoever called and nosed in on this. I think he has a business to run.
Mr. Brandgard said I don’t know who called if anybody did.
Mr. McPhail said it wasn’t me.
Mr. Carlucci said I have a similar situation. I live in a four-lot
subdivision with no homeowners association. I have the exact same language with our drainage swales. If my neighbor was going to illegally divert water or something on my property, I have to make a decision do I take them to civil court or do I live with it, if that was the situation. I don’t have that situation like you do but I have the same situation. If something was going to be diverted onto my property, I have to make a decision, as a homeowner, what I want to do. Normally you take those restrictive covenants and you go to the circuit or superior court and a lot of people do. I know that the Williamsburg in the Woods’ Homeowners Association has taken..........
Ms. Underwood said he is a construction worker he was well aware to get that straight.
Mr. Carlucci said………………and the Crystal Bay Homeowners Association and
the Hawthorne Ridge Homeowner Association is all the same way. They can take their covenants and enforce them on their own neighbors that live in that subdivision.
Ms. Underwood said if I build a home 10 years from now I will know what to do too and where to go.
Mr. Brandgard said in the same light what Mr. Carlucci is talking about the ditch behind my house, the neighbors down the way, all went together and I don’t know what they did exactly.
Mr. Carlucci said they dedicated the easements so the Town would go in there and fix it.
Ms. Underwood asked, they dedicated the easements to what?
Mr. Daniel said to the Town so that the Town had the authority to go in there and resolve a drainage issue.
Ms. Underwood asked, where are you?
Mr. Brandgard said I’m in the Walnut Hills area.
Mr. Daniel said some people filled that ditch in and made a yard out of it. Over a period of time it created some drainage problems for the neighbors but there was no dedication. Finally the neighbors got together and got people to dedicate the drainage system to the Town.
Ms. Underwood asked, I have another couple of questions. What is the
reading can I put an 8-10 foot fence up?
Mr. Daniel said I’m not going to tell you what you can or cannot do.
Ms. Underwood asked, what is the reading in there on that? You said
you have the reading on the swale.
Mr. Daniel said I was asked by the Town to determine whether or not
that was dedicated to the Town and whether the Town had the authority to go in there and do anything on that easement.
Ms. Underwood asked, who did you go to to talk about that?
Mr. Daniel said I didn’t talk to anyone. Mr. Belcher forwarded to me
the plat that was recorded. I looked at the language on the plat because that is where you find what was dedicated to the Town and what was not.
Ms. Underwood asked, what is the language on a high fence? Can there be one on my street? I mean I will shut everybody out. I don’t have to look at them. I can build my yard so high they will be knocking down the walls in here but you guys might help her get a lawsuit and make me spend a lot of money. My next question is what are you going to do about the problem that she created for herself? Who do I talk to? Do I talk to you? Who gives me an answer on catching these people that keep putting the under house water in our sewer systems? One of these days they are all going to quit working in that area too. I have told Mr. Carlucci that.
Mr. Brandgard asked, how do you know that they are doing that?
Ms. Underwood said she has an illegal pipe that goes over onto the
gentleman that owns the four and a half acres at the back of us. It doesn’t pump no more. Is that a good enough sign? When it did pump 24 hours a day if we had two inches of rain. Is that a good enough answer? Plus I seen her business people under the floor. I mean that is quite nosey. I can go out my drive and see who is crawling in her garage and so forth. I’ve seen them carry sump pumps in. It doesn’t come out the back anymore so where is it going? Am I dumb? Can she be fined for it? Someone give me an answer? Mr. Carlucci can she be fined for it?
Mr. Carlucci said if it is determined that she has a sump pump pumping into the sewer system, we can make her disconnect it.
Ms. Underwood said certainly if she has a switch that turns it on and
off, what are you going to do?
Mr. Carlucci said people can be very devious. We can walk out of there the next day and they could reconnect it.
Ms. Underwood asked, what is wrong with secretly doing it and fining
them pretty heavy? I thought this Town needed money. It sounds like it. Maybe we can get some of these sewers fixed free of charge.
Mr. Fivecoat asked, Geneva would you want to live in a town that
anytime the town wanted to they could come in your house and check?
Ms. Underwood said the government is going to do that sooner or later
anyway.
Mr. Fivecoat said I don’t want to live in a town that way.
Ms. Underwood said I don’t either. I’m not knocking this Town or this
County. I’ve been in Hendricks County since 1962 so that is a long time. Thank you guys but I would like to have an answer on what you are going to do or how you can do it. I think you are supposed to let people know so that they can turn those off because we are wasting our tax money and our time paying you guys to go out there and give her a chance, or if it is four or five more people, giving them a chance to disconnect that so that they can hook it up when we walk away. I thought we secretly run those down the line to catch however many we could catch and fine them heavy. That’s not true anymore?
Mr. Brandgard said this Town doesn’t operate that way.
Mr. Daniel said since I have represented the Town I don’t know of them ever secretly doing something like that.
Ms. Underwood asked, so it doesn’t matter to you then how many does it illegally?
Mr. Carlucci said I don’t know how you would do it. I think you have
to get in the house and inspect it otherwise you don’t know what is
happening.
Ms. Underwood said I thought you could run the smoke in the sewer lines and if it came out their house, they were illegal putting water in the sewer lines. Am I stupid or is that a 1962 thing?
Mr. Carlucci said I don’t know.
Mr. Daniel said we have done that for gutter checks.
Mr. Belcher said (inaudible).
Mr. Castetter said (inaudible).
Ms. Underwood said the whole country is learning how to do it illegal
right?
Mr. Daniel said no it is a different system.
Mr. Jonathan Harrier at 6645 Gadsen Ct. said I’m the current president of the Glen Haven Homeowners Association. I’m going to go through a few items that were presented on June 23 of last year by our association’s president at the time, Michael Dell. Essentially four of these items out of the six presented have not had any action taken on them. So, I’m essentially going to be reading exactly the same information that was read on June 23 of last year. There will be some other residents that are going to expand on the points that I have at least on a couple of them.
The first point that we had labeled sidewalk and curb repairs. As of
this date, and keep in mind this is June 23 of last year, the sidewalk and curb repairs deemed necessary by the Town of Plainfield have not been completed. At a meeting between Stafford Development and Genesis Management who was then our management company of the homeowners association and the Glen Haven Homeowners Association’s members on January 3, 2003 Don and Doug Stafford indicated sidewalk and curb repairs for the neighborhood of Glen Haven in Plainfield would be completed by mid June 2003. The sidewalk at Gadsen Drive and Pasco Lane, which is next to a pond has been installed, which was in the winter of 2002 but the finished grading and landscaping has yet to be finished. There is a significant drop from one side of the walk and this could do some personal injury. You will see some of the things do reference Stafford Development. Currently there is still a bond held by the Town so a lot of these issues we had come to the board to push forward and there hasn’t been any action since then.
Here is another issue, final paving of the neighborhood streets. As of this date, June 23 the final paving of the Glen Haven neighborhood streets have not been completed. At a meeting between Stafford Development/Genesis Management and the Glen Haven Homeowners Association members on January 3, 2003 Don and Doug Stafford indicated final paving of the streets would be completed pending replacement of curbs and water valves. This was estimated to be finished by mid June of 2003. The neighborhood streets are
deteriorating and are in need of serious maintenance and repair prior to final paving. If these repairs are not performed, the final coat of paving will not adhere property and could retain water underneath. It would ultimately lead to potholes and cracks. I believe two times since this meeting probably the Town’s Public Works has come out to mark the spots on the curbs that needed repair but nothing has been done. Since then these marks have worn off again. The fact is these roads have deteriorated quite a bit more. They are pretty bad. We will show you some pictures I believe that we have.
Here is another issue that effects several homeowners individually.
There is a landscape mound drainage easement on Pennekamp Drive, which is east of our community. The homes located on the east side of Pennekamp Drive border the community of Center Ridge. The master plot plan for Section 4 of Glen Haven show an average lot depth of 100 feet plus or minus a little bit. The plot plan indicates a 40-foot drainage and utility easement. There is no indication of a mound or hill to be located on properties on the plot plans. This hill is very close to the rear of some of these homes and in some instances within 20 feet. So, essentially a lot of these homeowners have lost a large portion of their back yards. You can imagine the results in property
value loss. Drainage and utility easements cannot be permanently changed or obstructed in any way. This does not mean, however, that some homeowners can’t use these as part of their rear yard for enjoyment. The homeowner has to maintain this property and pay taxes on it. This landscape mound is robbing the people who live on Pennekamp of over one half of the back yard that they pay taxes on and maintain, that is an approximation. The 40-foot drainage easement on the rear of the Pennekamp lots is not utilized correctly. The mound located on the rear of these properties prevents drainage. There is no throughway, slope or field tile installed to remove
water from the back yards of these lots. The slightest rains result in sandy water. This water then either soaks in or runs off the front of these lots. Glen Haven would like to have Stafford remove the mound and set the trees into the easement. This mound is an eyesore and takes away from the homeowner’s property values.
One more issue that has not yet been resolved is issues with ponds.
Glen Haven has five retention ponds within the development. All of these ponds have issues with bank erosion, algae, silting and inlet/outlet pipes. The erosion of the banks is getting progressively worse. The topsoil on the banks of the ponds will not support grass or vegetation growth resulting in bare dirt. This dirt is ultimately washed away and channeled during heavy rainfall. Algae is a common problem with ponds and Glen Haven is no exception. The Glen Haven ponds are treated for algae by our landscaping service. We seem to have considerable trouble with one pond in particular, a pond located in the southeast corner of the neighborhood. It is east of Marco Lane and south of Pasco Lane. This brings up concerns of proper depth,
aeration and stagnation, etc. This pond is also a considerable problem with silting. The inlet pipe at the northwest corner of the pond has silted significantly. It might have been addressed but I’m not sure completely. Maybe somebody can address that. All of the ponds in Glen Haven are in need of repair especially the area around the inlet/outlet pipes. The riprap on all of the ponds is in need of replacement.
So, like I said I read pretty much verbatim that was presented June 23 of last year. I placed a couple of calls and actually talked with Mr. Castetter. He has let me know some of the things that are kind of going on with Stafford and the Town and what they are working through legally. But the thing is we have been sitting on this forever. Our neighborhood has been done. It is completed and it is really an eyesore all around particularly the streets and the paving and the homeowners that are living on the east side of Pennekamp is a great injustice. So, basically we would like to know what is going to be done about these items and how we are going to push things forward? If need be, taking advantage of the bond that the Town has and addressing these issues just to get it done instead of having it wrapped up in whatever legal procedures that are going on. So, we would just really like to know what is being done here and what we can expect as far as a time frame?
Mr. Castetter said I met with Doug Stafford a week and a half ago. I
walked every retention pond out there. Unfortunately, since I have been with him we have had some rain events and for them to get dirt in and around the pond I’ve been unable to get that dirt. You are exactly right as far as silting. Those are all of the things that I have addressed with them. You probably noticed that they were out there today. They are out there today as well raising fire hydrants to get them up to the proper line. It is unfortunate that it has taken this long but they are moving. That is the direction that we are going. We will stay on it and continue to keep things going. (Inaudible when he is discussing all that they are doing). Mr. Harrin asked, what is the time frame on those issues?
Mr. Castetter said we are moving on it now. It is just a matter of it
getting dry enough to get the dirt in and around the pond and get grass to grow on it. I’m hoping by the end of the month all of those things are complete. The only thing that will be outstanding is the curb damage. I’m not sure where that stands yet.
Mr. Harrin said as far as the structure of the ponds we had questions
there about if they are actually made properly, not having the grass growing around the sides but algae.
Mr. Castetter said I haven’t reviewed the plans as far as depth of the pond, etc. My first impression as far as visual is the riprap that is missing, etc. (Inaudible).
Mr. Harrin said we have been treating it with large amounts of
chemicals so there probably isn’t the obvious appearance. That is something that we have been dealing with. So, the time frame on the roads the curb issue is what is holding up on that?
Mr. Castetter said we are in talks with that now. We had a meeting
today in trying to resolve the curb issue. We will get it surfaced as soon as possible.
Mr. Harrin asked, is there a way to circumvent the curb issue? I don’t know the process is what I’m asking.
Mr. Castetter said we are looking at more than one way. Our goal is to get you guys surfaced and also protect the integrity of the curbs. We are doing that to the best of our ability. It is one of those things that we are looking at three or four different scenarios to get to the ultimate goal of making everybody happy that you can be proud of.
Mr. Harrin said I didn’t know if anybody on the board had anything to
add to that.
Mr. Carlucci said I would like to go ahead and talk about the berm. At the last Council meeting the issue of the landscape berm came up and the Council asked the Staff to go back and look at the approved detailed plans for that subdivision. That subdivision came in as a Planned Unit Development. With the Planned Unit Development there were a lot of requirements in there in terms of how we were to proceed with that project specifically about the berm. There were two groups of people there. One group that wasn’t in there yet and one group that was living in Center Ridge. So, when that Planned Unit
Development was approved, you have the Center Ridge people who said this development here is not going to be the same type of development that we have in Glen Haven. Meaning that most of the houses in Center Ridge have brick facades so the reason that the berm came up was that the Plan Commission had to make a decision because the neighbors there in Center Ridge wanted some kind of buffer between the two developments. At the time they were the only ones there that was living at Center Ridge at the time. The difference was that most of the homes in Glen Haven had vinyl siding and they had brick siding so that became an issue to them. So, some of the discussion at the
Plan Commission meeting really had to do with what is the best way to buffer? One idea was to have the rear of those homes in Glen Haven that abut Center Ridge have 80% of the rear in brick. That didn’t seem to be too workable of a scenario. It didn’t mean you had to have the rest of it brick. So, the option that was approved in that Planned Unit Development was a three-foot landscape mound with trees on the top. That is what you are dealing with now. It says a minimum three-foot berm and that is what they put in there and they had trees on top of it and from what we understand it is not functionally real well anyway. However, to get rid of that three-foot berm, because this was actually in the detailed plans that were approved by the
Plan Commission, the Plan Commission is the only group that can get rid of that berm. That would have to be through a public hearing because that was part of that development plan for that project. We couldn’t authorize anybody to go in there tomorrow and take that out because that is part of the plan. For example, if they had a playground in there showing in a certain location and a certain type of playground, the Town couldn’t give permission to have the playground taken out. It has to go back through the Plan Commission to have that approval. The Plan Commission is what created that
Planned Unit Development. And do you have a fully functional homeowners association?
Lady from the audience said yes we are.
Mr. Carlucci said the homeowners association could file a petition with the Plan Commission to have that mound removed. Who removes it is going to be another issue because Don Stafford may feel like I have done my job I’m not going to come back. We are having trouble getting the curbs replaced. Moving an existing mound may be a different story. But the only way to get that out of there is to go back to the Plan Commission and have a public hearing, which means by the way that you would have to notice the adjoining property owners in Center Ridge because they have a right to have input on that, on how they would feel about that mound disappearing and the impact it
would have on them. Obviously, it is having an impact on you but it also has an impact on them. And then the Plan Commission would have to decide if they did decide to alter that plan, then the Town Council can turn around and vacate that landscape easement. But the key point is getting the Plan Commission providing compelling evidence that this doesn’t work and these are the hardships that we are facing. You are talking about some places the yards are so narrow that the drainage isn’t working and in essence you would be better off without it and giving people some of their yard back than keeping
it the way that it is. You may have a good case to get that approved I don’t know. Again, you have the people from Center Ridge that would also have to give that kind of input into that landscape mound. At the end of the process if the Plan Commission approved the change, simply the Town Council would then agree to vacate that landscape easement on the plat and that would take care of that.
Mr. Kirchoff said it still comes back to their decision as to who would remove it.
Gentleman from the audience asked, is it a Town easement?
Mr. Carlucci said no but the only way the easement can come off the
plat is for the Town to vacate that easement. It does not own that property. It doesn’t own that mound. It did not put the mound there to begin with.
Gentleman asked, isn’t this a reverse scenario of the lady who put the mound in the easement though? Couldn’t we just take this one off of it?
Mr. Carlucci said I don’t believe you can do that because that is a
Planned Unit Development and that is the way that the project was approved. It wasn’t approved just as a simple subdivision that met the Zoning Ordinance requirements and the covenants were recorded and done that way. With a Planned Unit Development you basically decide how many lots there are going to be and what the setbacks are and the size of the houses, etc. You create basically a whole new zoning district for that area and that is what they did. The theory behind the mound was it would be a buffer between the two neighborhoods but it seems to not only be acting as a buffer but it is creating other problems.
Gentleman said the position of the mound is not right. There is an
individual homeowner plot plans. Some of them say something to the effect there is nothing on it. There is not supposed to be a mound. It doesn’t say that exactly but some of them show the position of the mound where it should be and it is not there. It is not in a correct position so our point is we understand that there was supposed to be a mound there on some people’s plot plans. On other people it doesn’t list a mound. On some people’s plot plans it shows this mound should be somewhere else.
Mr. McPhail asked, was this mound installed after you purchased your
home?
Ms. Belinda Maar at 5885 Pennekamp Dr. said yes it was. Approximately
two weeks after we moved in a work crew showed up and tore up our back yard. This was the beginning of December. We went through a very tumultuous winter because anytime there was snow that melted or anything we had water in our back yard. We had this huge hill. It is more than three feet tall. It is at the front of the landscape easement and not at the back of the landscape easement.
Mr. McPhail said we had a gentleman here at the last Council meeting
and his complaint was that it was too steep to mow.
Ms. Marr said it is. When you are on the backside of it, it is almost
six feet tall.
Mr. McPhail said I went and looked at his and I didn’t look at the
other addresses. His was only three feet high.
Ms. Marr said come and look at my back yard.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, what is your address again?
Ms. Marr said 5885 Pennekamp Dr. At one point they had to come and put a hole through it in the middle of the winter because my house was surrounded in the back yard on three sides by water. So, they put a little hole through it. They said we will finish in the spring. When they finished, nothing changed. It is at the front of the landscape easement at 35 feet and then it goes back and then I have approximately six feet at the bottom of the hill on the other side that a homeowner in Center Ridge thinks is his land. I have copies here of our original plot plan that we got when we closed on our house and it does not have a landscape mound on it. This is my next door neighbors and hers actually says, “existing ditch to remain undisturbed.” So, when they finished, we decided we wanted a fence because we were going to get a dog. This was the plot plan that I got after that and it shows the landscape mound at the very back. That is not where it is located. It is located right here. So, I have lost 35 feet of my yard. We have homeowners that don’t have enough room to put a swing set in their back yard for their children. It is in their side yard. That is how close this is to their homes because it is on the front of the easement. My house when it rains, and you can get
a half-inch rain, I have water in my back yard. My yard is continually wet. The rain that we had last weekend I’m still walking in swishing. My nextdoor neighbor and I have a little marsh area between our houses because there is a low spot. The drain is on the other side of the hill and I don’t know any water that I can see that drains uphill and then goes down to a drain. This is what we have dealt with for three years. I don’t want another winter like that. In the spring it takes three months for my yard to dry out. My yard is always wet and it makes it difficult for grass to grow there and we
have a petition that we have taken around from the neighborhood. We want it in the right place. We want it removed from where it is at because it is not conducive to drainage and to our homes value. We hope you can help.
Mr. Brandgard asked, Mr. Belcher and Mr. Higbee does the plot show the location of where that mound is supposed to be or should it?
Mr. Higbee said yes. It is my recollection, although I will have to
refresh myself, she has some plot plans with her tonight, but it is my recollection that there is a landscape easement that is part of the recorded plat along the back of the lots. It is interesting because tonight is the first that I have ever heard that it is in the wrong place. I had heard that some people didn’t like it very much out there but I never heard that it was in the wrong place. So, that is something that we will have to go out and make measurements to determine that. I don’t doubt with all of the other problems out there that it is probably in the wrong place but that is the first time that we ever heard that.
Gentleman from audience said I will just make one more comment and then I will be done. We would just like the Town to look at the plat to see the location of that mound where it should be and then address it from there. I think that is probably the recourse that we should take at this point. Does that make sense?
Mr. Brandgard said yes. We need to look at it because normally if we
have an easement, it means it could go anywhere in the easement. But if they have something there that is specifically shown where it is supposed to be, that is what we need to look for.
TOWN MANAGER’S REPORT
Mr. Carlucci said I was talking to the president of the homeowners
association. I wonder if it would be appropriate that if they decide to go ahead and file a petition to change that Planned Unit Development, if we could consider waiving the filing fees?
Mr. McPhail made a motion to waive the filing fees. Second by Mr.
Fivecoat. Motion carried.
Mr. Carlucci said I have two reports tonight. The first report is on
the Regent Aerospace request for a real property tax abatement. Regent is proposing to construct 100,800 square foot building that potentially could be expanded to 200,000 square feet on 15.8 acres directly east of the Prologis building, which is east of Primo’s on the south side of Hadley Road. The total cost of the project is estimated at 4.3 million dollars. The project will retain 21 jobs and create 12 new permanent positions. As you know, Regent, which has been discussed a little bit works with the airline industry to do cabin refurbishments and primarily they do seat reupholstering. They
bring the product in and they reupholster it and they take it back out to the airline. The tax abatement commitment has reviewed the petition and found it to be in order. They have provided all of the necessary information. It is not in a tax increment-financing district so that will not be required to seek approval from the Redevelopment Commission. I have put a resolution in your binders and eventually these things that you get in your binders eventually get on your disk. We put them in after the fact but we do have a resolution to start that process. If you decide to approve the declaratory resolution, then we will schedule a public hearing to take place at the June 28th meeting and that will be where the Council can approve the abatement if you so chose by adopting a confirmatory resolution.
We had a Plan Commission meeting last Monday, the 7th so I have a
certification that I will read. I, Richard A. Carlucci, in my capacity as Secretary of the Plainfield Plan Commission, hereby certify that the Plainfield Plan Commission held a public hearing on Monday, June 7, 2004 in the petition of Robert Church for rezoning five acres from AG, Agricultural to GC, General Commercial, RZ 04-003. The Plainfield Plan Commission voted seven to zero to make a favorable recommendation to the Plainfield Town Council to rezone said property as described herein on attachment “A” dated the 7th day of June 2004. The property that Mr. Church is purchasing is the
Mildred Brown property on Moon Road. It is obviously on the west side of the road and it is just north of the new church that was built. I think he plans to move his business out there. It is ever expanding now across the street and he is running out of room and they have asked for that rezoning. Again, if you give your consent for approval of the recommendation, there is a rezoning ordinance on here to start the rezoning process.
Mr. Kirchoff made a motion to approve the recommendation from the
Plainfield Plan Commission to rezone five acres from AG, Agricultural to GC, General Commercial referencing RZ-04-003. Second by McPhail. Motion carried.
Mr. Carlucci said I also have to present to the Town Council two
letters of resignation. The first letter is dated May 25, 2004 and it is from Kevin J. Cavanaugh who is a member of the Plainfield Plan Commission. He has indicated that he will be going to Banning Engineering for gainful employment and decided that it was appropriate to resign from both the Plan Commission and the Design Review Committee. In addition, I have a letter dated June 8,
2004 from Warren Shrum who is a member of the Board of Zoning Appeals. In his letter, which you all have copies of he indicated that he has been on the Plan Commission for a few years and then on the Board of Zoning Appeals for approximately 40 years. So, if it is not a record, it ought to be a record of a commitment to a job that you don’t get paid enough for. So, I would like to present both resignations to you.
Mr. Brandgard said we are going to lose two real good people.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, do we have any kind of a history-recognizing people for Mr. Shrum’s service?
Mr. Carlucci said we should. Mr. Shrum is a World War II fighter pilot who flew airplanes in the South Pacific and lately he just had his hip replaced and he has indicated a desire prior to the first of the year to want to come off the BZA. He is still sharp as a tack. I just think he is having a problem getting around but he enjoys it and we enjoy having him. The one advantage having someone like Mr. Shrum that has been on the board for so long is that he remembers so much of what has gone on from 35 years ago in the BZA. So, he has been a part of the growth of this community and a big part of the BZA.
Mr. Brandgard asked, does he want to resign immediately?
Mr. Carlucci said I think this resignation is immediately.
Mr. McPhail said as a side note I talked to Mr. Shrum last week. He has purchased a condominium from Chuck Mead at the Passage and has his house for sale. He is not leaving Town but is just going a little bit farther south.
Mr. McPhail made a motion to accept the two resignations of Kevin J.
Cavanaugh from the Plan Commission and DRC and also from Warren Shrum
resigning from the BZA. Second by Mr. Kirchoff. Motion carried.
Mr. Carlucci said Mr. Cavanaugh’s term expires December 31, 2005 and
Mr. Shrum’s term expires December 31, 2006. Both of these are four-year terms. In terms of the BZA there is no political affiliation requirement for BZA members. So, that is not something that you have to worry about. In terms of the Plan Commission Mr. Cavanaugh’s political affiliation is a Republican. We have four citizens’ members, two have to be Republican and two have to be Democrat, Independent or some other but he is one of the Republican appointees to the Plan Commission.
Mr. Brandgard asked, was Mr. Cavanaugh a Council’s appointment to the
Plan Commission?
Mr. Carlucci said I would have to go back and look.
Mr. Brandgard asked, is Mr. Shrum a Council appointment?
Mr. Carlucci said he was a Council appointment. The Plan Commission
appoints Rick Matrana or Mitch Haase and the Town Council picks one or the other but Mr. Shrum doesn’t fall under that category, you appointed him.
Mr. Brandgard said with that we need to find somebody for both
positions. From the BZA prospective with the background that Mr. Cavanaugh has and as long as he has served I would like to put his name for the BZA. I think based on the fact that he resigned because he would be in a position of presenting to the Plan Commission but normally engineers don’t present to the BZA. So, that would probably work.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, there would be no conflict of interest there?
Mr. Brandgard said right and I think he has expressed an interest in
that.
Mr. McPhail asked, do you want to try to get that done this evening?
Mr. Brandgard said if we are ready, or we can wait until the next
meeting.
Mr. McPhail said I certainly think he would be excellent on the BZA.
He has been an excellent member on the Plan Commission. I think he certainly understands the function of the BZA. I would not hesitate to make a motion to appoint Mr. Cavanaugh to the BZA to complete the term of Mr. Shrum effective June 15, 2004. Second by Mr. Kirchoff. Motion carried.
Mr. Kirchoff said I think we want to take some time to fill the
position for Plan Commission.
Mr. Brandgard said yes.
REPORTS
Mr. Fivecoat said Mr. Belcher had contacted me and I thought I talked
to Mr. Brandgard about the roof on the new sewer treatment plant. The
contractor is saying that there is an increase in steel prices for the metal roof on the sewer treatment plant in the amount of about a $25,000.00 increase. He is wanting to maybe go to an asphalt shingle roof. So, we talked it over and I think we need to discuss it and I will let Mr. Belcher take it from here.
Mr. Belcher said I wish I had a chance to call Mr. Brandgard before the meeting. I appreciate Mr. Fivecoat bringing it up because it is not a super high priority decision tonight but it really would help our schedule to have some discussion to get you to decide on this. We have been struggling with the steel on a lot of different items because of the way the project started late. We asked the contractor to extend so some of these material price increases we agreed to at the time we issued the contract. That is why this is different than a lot of our other contracts. We just can’t tell them we are sorry whatever it is you have to pay but on steel he has been up front and he said this is what steel is doing. There is even a board underneath the steel, a special board, that we were also seeing a major increase. So, I asked him to look at an option. What we have done in any case where we thought there was an alternative material that would be equal as far as the product that it would provide. That is where the argument might be is an asphalt-shingled roof as opposed to a metal roof and the longevity, etc. Wewent to a metal on this building from a shingle. We had a lot of problems with the shingled roof.
Mr. Brandgard said I was glad you brought that up.
Mr. Belcher said I said to Mr. Fivecoat that is a good point. I don’t
know how much of that was related with installation and what was underneath that material. We were going to put a high quality decking and a 30-year shingle on there and we had just done that with some of the other park buildings going to a shingled at Friendship Gardens and it made it really attractive. So, I was thinking along those lines if we can come up with an alternative and save some money, it would be worth bringing to the Council for discussion. Just because we have been trying to look for product replacements that are equal in quality and still give us an attractive building and save us some money. So, we are looking at maybe avoiding an increase and also getting a credit both at the same time. So, it is a net change, I forget the number off the top of my head. It was a pretty substantial amount, $25,000.00-$35,000.00 in the full swing from top to bottom. But it is a different material and they will go either way obviously.
Mr. Whitaker said one thing that might be different on this building is the roof is different. It is a much simpler roof pattern. Obviously, when you are working with shingles and creating valleys and things like that, they are generally areas where you can get some weakness. Here it is a very straightforward design in terms that we are dealing with any complexities. The metal roof does have a life as well so in terms of trying to have an equivalent life that is really what we have tried to do. So, we are going to the higher end shingle. The difference in the cost is significant. Metal is killing us. Among other things metal is really killing us. So, we have an opportunity here to recoup some of that by changing the material and still
end up with the same life on a very straightforward simple roof pattern. That is why we are bringing it to the Council. We think in this application with a gabled roof this makes some sense.
Mr. McPhail said as best as I remember the original design had asphalt shingles and we asked them to change because we wanted continuity.
Mr. Belcher said we have metal at the water plant, which is about a
quarter mile away. It is a metal roof deck on the water plant but because we were able to issue that contract we don’t have the problems, that is a contractor problem, so we are not struggling with the same problems.
Mr. McPhail said this is a pretty high pitch roof too.
Mr. Whitaker said it is a good pitch on the roof and we are not dealing with kind of a flat roof. It has nice gabled ends and a simple roofline pattern.
Mr. McPhail said I know Mr. Fivecoat has had to face a bunch of
increases since he has taken over. It seems to be it would be prudent if we could save that much money. If we were putting it on our house, we would put a shingled roof on it and not have a second thought about it.
Mr. Fivecoat made a motion to replace the metal roof on the new
wastewater treatment plant from a steel roof to asphalt shingles with the engineering firm recommended by Mr. Belcher. I don’t have a cost on that right now.
Mr. Whitaker said it will be a credit somewhere between $10,000.00-
$15,000.00. Second by Mr. Kirchoff. Motion carried.
Mr. McPhail said we did a punch list today on the pool at the
recreation center. I’m satisfied that those are all minor issues that will be corrected. We need four or five more days of dryer weather but the outdoor aquatic center is moving along real well.
Mr. Daniel said I apologize bringing this in late to the meeting but it really is a very minor change in an ordinance that already exists. We have an ordinance called General Ordinance #36-2003, which regulates the parking, loading and unloading and operation of vehicles within the Town. We have worked with the Town Court on that and struggled on that somewhat because the original Ordinance #36-2003 in the ordinance itself refers to ordinance violation constituting an infraction, which for years and years ordinance
violations were always infractions. Now because of the State attitude on who should prosecute infractions verses ordinances it is necessary to take infraction language out. So, what this amounts to, the blank 2004, Mr. Carlucci or Mr. Isaacs will have to give us a number, the only thing that it does different is where it talks about a violation it just becomes a violation to an ordinance rather than it constitutes an infraction. The word infraction is out, otherwise, it is identical to the prior ordinance.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, does it have to go through the normal process?
Mr. Daniel said this I would like accelerated if I could.
Mr. Carlucci said it would be 15.
Mr. Daniel said #15-2004.
[Second tape concluded at this point and resumed as follows:]
Mr. Prince said I have one item to discuss tonight. We have just one
unfinished project out at the recreation center site. We elected to leave a structure on the north side of Pike Lane. So, when demolished the rest of the homes along there, there was a nice block building that we could use for storage. All along we knew if we kept it, we would have to refurbish it to make it useful. I collected some numbers at the request of Councilman McPhail and we have a proposal from JDH Contracting. This was not specifically budgeted for and I did make a suggestion in the report. There is no way that I’m going to be able to get the tennis court project done this year. We could utilize some of those funds and continue with the tennis court project in the next budget year to get that building remodeled. What we are proposing on that is to put new doors in it, put a new roof on it, strip the inside and paint it a color that complements the recreation center. It will look like an outbuilding for the recreation center when we are done with it. We will clean up all of that brush around there, which is pretty significant.
Mr. McPhail said this has been our intent all along. A week or 10 days ago I was walking by there, I said we haven’t done anything to that building. I called Mr. Prince and he said he had a bid coming so he saw it a few days before I did. With all of the other things going on I have been kind of remiss on that. Our intent was to bring it up to snuff and it is a good block building.
Mr. Brandgard said it looks like a good building.
Mr. McPhail said other than the doors and roof.
Mr. Brandgard asked, are there any monies left in the building out
there to do this or do we have to go to other funds?
Mr. McPhail said I think the problem that we have is it is on a
different piece of property than the parks facility.
Mr. Carlucci said there were two houses that were on the south side of Pike Lane that were included in the legal description for the Plainfield Parks Facility Corporation. Her property, Mrs. Mann’s property was not.
Mr. Daniel said that is correct.
Mr. Carlucci said so I don’t think we can spend that money from that bond issue on that property.
Mr. Prince said it was $8,900.00 before possibly we go back and do some value engineering on it. I would say an amount not to exceed that.
Mr. Gaddie asked, what is the size of this building?
Mr. Prince said I haven’t measured it off myself. You could fit
vehicles in there.
Mr. Kirchoff said it is like a small garage.
Mr. Prince said it would be like a two-car garage but it is extended,
it is longer than that.
Mr. McPhail said at some time somebody has had some kind of business,
some really high electric use in there. It has some big panels so they have had some kind of equipment in there at one time. There are some pretty good size starter boxes, etc. It was a shop of some kind. I would move that we approve the funds to remodel the block building not to exceed $8,900.00. Second by Mr. Kirchoff. Motion carried.
Mr. Kirchoff said if I remember last fall you gave us a proposal that
you were working on a new sign for at least Swinford Park.
Mr. Prince said we actually have a drawing of the sign. The stumbling
block came when we were waiting for the new park-zoning ordinance to be in effect, which I think it is now. And we have that on our short list. That has happened. I need to visit with Mr. Higbee and find out how that changed the ordinance but before it was going to cost us more than the sign to go through the process to get it approved. So, we held off on it until the ordinance changed.
Mr. Kirchoff said I’m down there quite a bit and it is pretty ratty.
Mr. Prince said we have told the guys to go ahead and paint in the
short term like we did at Franklin. The Franklin sign was painted and looks a little bit better but we have the drawing and the pricing and everything and I think the concept was approved when we were meeting at the police headquarters there for a while. It was just like I said we were in a zoning situation that was going to cost us more than the sign to go in.
Mr. Kirchoff said the only thing I remember is we wanted you to stay
inside our existing sign ordinance. We didn’t want to not follow our rules.
Mr. Brandgard said we would normally waive the filing fees. You still
have to go through the process.
Mr. Prince said at the time we were zoned residential and that required a certified mailing to everyone in the area. We did all types of research and it was going to be more expensive than the sign to do that. And then it was our intention to wait for the new ordinance, which now has come into effect. I need to visit with Mr. Higbee to find out what that means for us and then we can move forward with that.
Mr. Kirchoff said I’m down there a lot and it just reminded me that I
thought we were going to do something.
Mr. Prince said it is embarrassing to our department and we have
intentions of moving forward but we will move that up on the priority list a little better.
Mr. Kirchoff said just so you don’t forget about it.
Mr. Fivecoat said I was talking to some people down at the aquatic
center this week and they brought up something that I would like to get a clarification on. When do we start selling the memberships?
Mr. Prince said I don’t know. Probably about a month ago the public
could walk in and buy a pass.
Mr. Fivecoat, asked, when does their membership expire?
Mr. Prince said what we are going to do is when the recreation center
opens to the public, we are going back into the software and start
everybody’s start date on that day. So, if they have bought a pass now, they will be able to visit the pool. They are actually going to get a few weeks free until we open up the recreation center and then we are going to reactivate those passes. If they bought a three-month, nine month, a year, they will have it from that date because actually they are purchasing the amenities of both. We thought that would be the fair thing to do.
Mr. Fivecoat said because these people wanted to buy one but they said they were waiting until it officially opened because they were told if they bought it like in April, theirs expired a year from April. They said there was no sense of paying for something that they couldn’t use and I said I understand that and I will find out.
Mr. Prince said that is not our intention.
Mr. Jason Castetter said while Mr. Prince is trying to save barns and
garages I wanted to make sure everybody knew that I tore one down over at the parks west of White Lick Creek, the old red barn on the property. We demoed that last week.
Mr. Higbee said my monthly report was not in your packet but I have it. If any of you don’t want to wait two weeks, just let me know and I will send it to you otherwise it will be on the next agenda.
You were mentioning Kevin Cavanaugh minutes ago and I wanted to let you know that he also requested that he be able to remain the PUD committee that was formed for the Metropolis PUD as each phase comes in. He didn’t think that would be a conflict and I agreed with him so I just wanted to throw that out there. If I don’t hear of any problems, I will tell him yes on that. We are going to meet again in about a week on their next phase.
I missed the first five minutes of the meeting. Did you keep the
Zoning Ordinance on the Consent Agenda?
Mr. Carlucci said it is approved.
OLD BUSINESS
Mr. McPhail said this isn’t old business but during the break I did
meet with the folks on Duffy and Raines Street. I’m going to go up and talk to those folks before the next Council meeting and bring in a report.
Mr. Kirchoff said I am going to meet with the Maar family on Thursday
afternoon.
NEW BUSINESS
Mr. Fivecoat said we had talked for quite awhile about a seal for the
Town of Plainfield. I would like to see if we could have a contest for the citizens to design a seal for the City of Plainfield. When we get that, that wall right there behind our President would be a good place to put it.
Mr. Brandgard said intuitively I would have thought that we would have had a seal and we don’t. I have asked about that for 25 years. I think that is a good idea. We did that with the Town flag and hopefully we will have some success with coming up with a neat seal or something.
Mr. Fivecoat asked, can we get it to the press on that and get it out
to the people and put it in the water bills and see what we can come up with?
Mr. Brandgard said yes.
Mr. Carlucci said I want to figure a way to structure this so that we
can know how to submit it.
Mr. Fivecoat said but I think we ought to have a seal.
Mr. Brandgard said I agree. Thank you for bringing that up.
Mr. McPhail said I think in your packets you received a copy of the
presentation, the Broadband Task Force with Ellen Davis at the United Tele Systems, Inc. It was a very good meeting and a very good presentation. As I suggested in the memo, they have presented us with a quotation amount of $34,825.00 to do a detailed business plan for that broadband service for the Town. I would certainly like to make a motion that we move forward with that and engage them to conduct this study and bring it back to us. That is a recommendation from the Broadband Task Force. Second by Mr. Fivecoat.
Mr. Kirchoff said my only comment would be that part of that study or
in addition to that we need to keep our options opened. Mr. McPhail and I have talked about this. We don’t want anything to lock us into a technology so hopefully this will help us think about various technologies that are out there. I think this is the right direction to go just as long as we don’t lock ourselves in. It is moving so fast out there who knows where we are going.
Mr. Gaddie asked, have you talked to anybody else who has used this
service?
Mr. McPhail said they submitted recommendations.
Mr. Gaddie said I had one complaint from one of those customers that
said it wasn’t a big issue. But have you dealt with any other customers?
Mr. McPhail said the only contacts that I personally have had have been through the people on the task force that have dealt with them.
Mr. Brandgard said I think what we are dealing with here too is just a business plan side.
Mr. Gaddie said I talked to Bill Castetter about it and he said their
presentation down there in Florida was very outstanding because I don’t know that much about this detail. A lot of us here don’t but Mr. Castetter is probably about the closest we have on this.
Mr. McPhail said it is a pretty complex issue. As Mr. Kirchoff said
the technology just keeps changing. When we have businesses right here in Town that can’t get service, we have to figure out some way to service them.
Mr. Fivecoat said SBC and Comcast are not willing to service it.
Mr. Gaddie said SBC has fiber in Town.
Mr. Fivecoat said there is a company right across the street here that they have tried to work with SBC and they won’t bring it to them and it is right on the pole right above their business.
Mr. McPhail said if we do this study, we will have a roadmap and I
think it is perfect timing as we are working on our comp plan. The thing that I like is if we like the plan, we can put it in with the comp plan and make it part of it.
Mr. Brandgard said with that we have a motion and a second to approve
using United Tele Systems, Inc. to provide a business plan for broadband delivery throughout the Town with the total cost not to exceed $34,825.00. If there is no further discussion, all those in favor signify by aye. None opposed, motion carried.
Mr. Daniel said back on our Consent Agenda there was some action there on the Clarks Creek Road South, Phase 3. Some time ago Mr. Belcher gave me the file on the Ball property. There had been some effort made to conclude requiring an easement on that property. Mr. Whitaker and Mr. Belcher indicated that was moving forward. Since that time I have written two letters to their attorney asking whether or not they wanted to try to resolve that through negotiations or not. I have not received any response at all so I would like permission from the Town to file a condemnation case on the Ball
property so that we can acquire that and go forward with that project.
Mr. Brandgard asked, is there consent? Consent given.
Mr. Isaacs said Mr. Castetter put new servers in here a week or so ago. It has been very helpful. We started the billing part of the MUNIS. We are starting to get that process rolling and moving forward. Hopefully, we are saying within the year we will have that whole system up and running on our side as well. We hope to be able to provide you with some timely information on financial status. We have worked very hard in that area and we appreciate that. It is about time to start budgeting again so we will have an opportunity hopefully with some very good data to work from to move forward
on budgeting. We need to complete that by the end of August.
Mr. Brandgard said I hope it helps things move smother than in the
past. I’m sure it will.
I just want to make one comment. I’m not sure where it would fit
exactly but last Thursday evening the Plainfield Town Council had a meeting with the Avon Town Council before their regular scheduled meeting last Thursday. It was a good meeting. We broke up earlier than expected due to the weather reports that were occurring about that time but nonetheless it was a good start on trying to understand each other and open up the line of communications between the two towns and hopefully be able to circumvent those who keep trying to format problems. That was the first meeting of many I hope. I just wanted to let everyone know what is going on.
RESOLUTIONS
Mr. Kirchoff made a motion to approve Resolution No. 2004-14: Regent
Aerospace Declaratory Resolution for a ten-year property tax abatement. Second by Mr. Fivecoat. Roll call vote called.
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gaddie – yes
Mr. Fivecoat – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent.
ORDINANCES
Mr. Kirchoff made a motion to approve Ordinance No. 14-2004: Church
rezoning on its first reading. Second by Mr. McPhail. Roll call vote
called.
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gaddie – yes
Mr. Fivecoat – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent.
Mr. McPhail made a motion to approve Ordinance No. 15-2004. An
ordinance to amend General Ordinance 36-2003 regulating the parking, loading and unloading and operation of vehicles within the Town of Plainfield on its first reading. Second by Mr. Kirchoff. Roll call vote called.
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gaddie – yes
Mr. Fivecoat – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent.
Mr. McPhail made a motion to suspend the rules in order to have the
second and third reading and adoption of Ordinance No. 15-2004. An ordinance to amend General Ordinance 36-2003 regulating the parking, loading and unloading and operation of vehicles within the Town of Plainfield on its first reading. Second by Mr. Fivecoat. Roll call vote called.
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gaddie – yes
Mr. Fivecoat – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent
Mr. McPhail made a motion to suspend the rules in order to have the
second and third reading and adoption of Ordinance No. 15-2004. An ordinance to amend General Ordinance 36-2003 regulating the parking, loading and unloading and operation of vehicles within the Town of Plainfield on its first reading. Second by Mr. Fivecoat. Roll call vote called.
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gaddie – yes
Mr. Fivecoat – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent.
Mr. McPhail made a motion to approve the second reading of Ordinance
No. 15-2004. An ordinance to amend General Ordinance 36-2003 regulating the parking, loading and unloading and operation of vehicles within the Town of Plainfield on its first reading. Second by Mr. Kirchoff. Roll call vote called.
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gaddie – yes
Mr. Fivecoat – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent.
Mr. Fivecoat made a motion to approve Ordinance No. 15-2004 on its
third reading and adoption. An ordinance to amend General Ordinance 36-2003 regulating the parking, loading and unloading and operation of vehicles within the Town of Plainfield on its first reading. Second by Mr. McPhail. Roll call vote called.
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gaddie – yes
Mr. Fivecoat – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent.
Mr. Brandgard said when we went through the Consent Agenda, I just
asked for verbal approval and since we did have a third reading and adoption of a couple of ordinance I now would like to entertain a motion to approve the Consent Agenda so that we can have a roll call vote on it.
Mr. Kirchoff made a motion to approve the Consent Agenda as presented. Second by Mr. McPhail. Roll call vote called.
Mr. McPhail – yes
Mr. Kirchoff – yes
Mr. Gaddie – yes
Mr. Fivecoat – yes
Mr. Brandgard – yes
5-ayes, 0-opposed, 0-absent.
OTHER COMMENTS
Chief Brinker said for clarification on 36-2003 is that to be written
as 36-2003 or 15-2004?
Mr. Daniel said 15-2004.
Mr. Kirchoff asked, will Mr. Carlucci come up with some kind of thank
you for Mr. Shrum for his 40 plus years of service? I’m not sure what that would be but I would think that we ought to do something as a Council.
Mr. Brandgard said we will come up with something.
ADJOURNMENT
Mr. McPhail made a motion to sign the necessary documents and adjourn. Second by Mr. Kirchoff. Motion carried.
Meeting adjourned.
____________________________________
Robin G. Brandgard, President
